Interview with Dr. John Demartini: The True Value of Authenticity – An Interview with a Human Behavior and Leadership Development Authority

Dr. John Demartini 00:00
You're basically having, people are held accountable. And this, this philanthropist, I was just mentioning, he spends as much time trying to figure out how to give his billions away, as he did making it, to make sure that he's thinking about those individuals and not just rescuing them, you know, don't rob them of dignity, accountability, responsibility, productivity, but actually giving them a catalyst for them to do something extraordinary where they're feeling fulfilled and independent in their lives. How do you do that?

Susan Sly 00:30
Welcome

Susan Sly 00:30
to Raw and Real Entrepreneurship, the show that dares to bring no nonsense insight to those who have the courage to start, grow and scale a business. I'm your host, Susan Sly. Well, hey, what's up, raw and real entrepreneurs, I am so excited and honored to have this guest today. His book, The Breakthrough Experience changed my life. I was in, in my early 30s, I was foraying into entrepreneurship and starting to have some early success. And like many of you, hit tha you know, multiple six figure level but then I became stuck. And it was a friend of mine, a coach who said, Hey, why don't you read this book? And when I read this book, I just, it was, was really transformed to be quite candid. And I said one day, I would really like to interview the author. So my guest today is considered one of the world's leading authorities on human behavior and leadership development. He is the founder of the, of the global education organization, the Demartini Institute, which has over 72 courses on self development, Life Mastery and leadership in its extensive curriculum. In addition to his 42 years of cross disciplinary research and you, to look at him if you're on YouTube, you won't even be able to be like, did you start as a toddler. He has published, check this out, 42 books on self development and translated into 39 languages. His best selling book, The Breakthrough Experience is transformative. So you all need to go to Amazon right now and get a copy. He has been featured in a number of film documentaries, including The Secret, which as you know, many of you are aware is, is such a phenomenal piece of work. The Opus, and Oh My God, along side Ringo Starr, Seal, and Hugh Jackman. He shared the stage with everyone—Sir Richard Branson, Deepak Chopra, and someone who is very near and dear to me before he passed, as many of you know, was a dear friend, as well, Dr. Wayne Dyer. So Dr. John Demartini, thank you for being here on Raw and Real Entrepreneurship.

Dr. John Demartini 02:50
Thank you for having me. Looking forward to it.

Susan Sly 02:52
Well, thank

Susan Sly 02:53
you. So let me just jump in and ask you. I asked all of our guests. What was your first business you ever had?

Dr. John Demartini 03:04
Can I share the funniest story? When I was, in 1963, because I'm going on 68 now, actually been teaching 50 years now. That's a bit older than that, that intro. In 1963, I went to my dad, I said, Dad, I want to buy a baseball glove, a baseball bat and a baseball. He said, fantastic, son. I said, so how do I earn that money to buy it? He says well, did you mow the yard? Yes, sir. Did you edge the sidewalk and the curb in the driveway? Yes, sir. Did you pull the weeds? Yes, sir. Did you cut the hedges? Yes, sir. Did you sweep out the garage? Yes, sir. Did you do the tile on the house? You make sure it's it's properly positioned? Yes, sir. Did you shine my shoes? Yes, sir. He said, son, I don't have anything else that needs to be done. If you're going to earn some money, you're going to have to be of service to people. I suggest you go to the neighbors and see if there's anything that they need done that you could possibly do. I went, okay. So I went down the street and I looked at some yards that were needing some service. And I walked up to the Evans which is a few doors down. And I knocked up the door and I really didn't do a lot of planning. I just knocked up and asked if there's anything I could do to, to mow or hedge or clip hedges or pull weeds or anything that I might be able to do, because my dad had taught me how to do all those things. He wanted to delegate that. And cheap labor. And so the lady said yes, how much? And I didn't have any idea and I just pulled out a number in nature. That sounds fair. So I spent the day getting, you know, bee stings and blisters and sunburn, but I did all the work. And I made a good chunk of money. And I went out bought my baseball, my glove, and my bat.

Dr. John Demartini 04:53
And I showed my dad that new baseball, glove, and bat. He goes, I see you got them baseball. Where did, what did you do? And I said, I went to the neighbors, like you said, and I did work. He said, What did you do? I said, I mowed and I edge and, I clipped hedges. He said, What equipment did you use? And I said, Well, equipment in the garage, he said, Well, son, you can't use equipment without negotiating a price because there's a depreciation schedule on that. And so let me, let me tell you what that would be. And he said, Well, you owe me $7.50. Well, I've already spent the money. So you got to, you got to pay your bills, you can't just spend all your money and not pay your bills. You have responsibilities. So you owe me $7.50. I went, Ah. So then I went down to the yards and some other yards, and I started making some money, but I had to pay him back, plus the new amount, which was eroding my profit margin. And it was a little more work and less return. And I was going, I still was good. I was making more money than the average kids. So then this guy came by in a bicycle. He's riding his bicycle while I was mowing this yard one time. And I said, How would you like to make 50 cents? And he said, that'd be great. And I said, if you push this mower and do this, this mowing, you got 50 cents. And the 50 cents was significant in those days. He said, wow. And so I got three kids to mow and edge and sweep and rake. I got another three kids, and another three kids, I got nine kids. I borrowed the Zubrods and the Mallas, neighbors equipment, they charge the same thing my dad did. So I knew what it was, it's fixed. And I would collect the money, do the deals, collect the money, they would do the work, I would make sure everything was the way it was the standards. And then at the end, I'd pay everybody off and pay my dad. And then I would take the money there and I could buy things. So I bought me a golf set. And I bought me a bicycle and I bought these things. And I made a net at the end of the day $45, which is around $600 a day for today's time. And so my dad was very inspired by this. He said son, you got one thing you're forgetting, you need to learn to save. So he got, bought me as a gift, a coin collection on these folding coin collection systems, and a piggy bank. Now, what's interesting is that piggy bank he gave me, he never gave me a way of opening it. In my office in Houston, Texas on the 52nd floor of a tall building, which is I've had an office for 36 years, that piggy bank sits there with the same exact coins from 1963 that have never been opened as a metaphor to remind me to think long term, and to save and not just spend my money. And I can thank my dad for that. Because I'm an entrepreneur, I'm very well off today because I was thinking long term and invested long term instead of immediate gratification. My dad then said to me, once he saw that I learned to save, I was able to produce, he says now you have the final step in your independence. I'm going to give you total independence. You go, you'll be able to go anywhere you want to go, anywhere on that bicycle. You only have one responsibility now at this house. And that is you have to be home by nine o'clock at night. But in order to do that, you got to pay $7.50 a week to pay, and to pay for food, clothing and rent. And I said to buy my freedom that's worth it. So I paid $7.50 a week, I still netted profit. And I saved my money. And I had my little business, I had nine employees. And I was netting you know, equivalent of about today's money, around $600 a day. And I bought myself the freedom to go and ride on my bicycle in any direction. 35 miles and explore and buy the things that I wanted. And also pay for that. So it was my room, I was paying for rent, I could do whatever I wanted in my room. And my dad was trying to teach me about the real world. And so grateful my dad had that foresight.

Susan Sly 08:52
John, that story is so incredible. And I used to have those folding blue books of coin collections too back in the day. And, you know, as I'm really thinking about all of those lessons, and you know, my follow up question is, you know, you learned at a young age, depreciation. I mean, there are people listening, right now, if your first language isn't English, you might not know what depreciation is. But there are people in entrepreneurship right now, in the United States, in Canada, Australia who don't understand depreciating. You learn depreciation, you learn how to run a team, you learn how to organize, manage, save, pay your bills, understand all of this. So what was your next business from that where you took all of these lessons and applied it as an adult?

Dr. John Demartini 09:46
Well I didn't really start a further business. I was sort of a vagabond, because when I was, when I was nine, I started riding my bicycle 35 miles. When I was 12 I started hopping trains to different cities. When I was 13, I start hitchhike into different cities. Just couldn't drive yet. And bicycles wouldn't take me 100 miles so I had to hit you know, hop trains. Then I started hitchhiking. At 14, I started hitchhiking across America to California and I, I snuck into Mexico. I literally hitchhiked down to Mexico, because I wanted to surf. Because I, that was my thing. Surfing at the Texas wasn't the surf capitol. So I hitchhiked to California at 14, down into Mexico. At 15, I made it my myself to Hawaii. And I lived in Hawaii. I was a Hawaiian surf buff, you know. And so I didn't have another career really starting, really. I mean, I kind of made surfboards, I was never great at that. I just served. I did little odd jobs to maintain my surfing because that's what I wanted to do. I didn't really start my real next business until I got in my earliest 20s. And then I started my speaking career. I started, I actually started speaking in a team, but I didn't make any money. I made maybe $2.50, for tutoring. That's about it. But I started my little entrepreneur speaking business. And at first I put a love donation out, and nobody loved me. Then I said minimum love donation. Well that, they minimally loved me. And I finally said $20 a session for a talk tonight. And people started paying. So I started making about $100,000 a year by the time I was 23. Doing speaking. And that didn't stop. Here, I'm you know, going on 68 and I'm still doing it. So I just kept doing that. And the more I valued myself, the more opportunities kept growing, you know. So people keep thinking, Well, when I get these opportunities then I'll value myself, it's the other way around. When you value yourself, you get opportunities. And so I took whatever I got, and I saved it. And when you value yourself and pay yourself first you get more opportunities to come to you. And so I started structuring it and I started to value myself, and the opportunities to speak and kept growing. And they kept getting bigger. And then it went around the city and then went around the state and then went around the nation. And then it now it's nearly 170 countries I've spoken in.

Susan Sly 12:14
And transforming lives. And that, to me is so fascinating, because there are a lot of people who dabble. So you've been at this a very long time. I mean, speaking profession.

Dr. John Demartini 12:27
This is my 50th year. 50th year of profession.

Susan Sly 12:31
And, and speaking, and you know, even Wayne, you know, we talked about Wayne Dyer in your intro. And Wayne, I remember, you know, so clearly the, you know, every endeavor he started, he started with a very similar mindset. I'm just going to go out, I'm going to add value to people's lives. And I'm going to charge what I feel I'm worth and as I grow, of course, I'm going to charge more, but my value is going to grow exponentially in terms of those lives. And one of the things I observe with people who don't make it in entrepreneurship, is they get that completely backwards. So they're, they're thinking about, how much can I charge as opposed to how much of value I can add? Can you speak to that? Because you are in, in my humble opinion, I mean, and I've followed you for years, and even on this show, interviewed incredible entrepreneurs like Dave Asprey, and Jesse Itzler, and all these amazing thought leaders. Coming back to the core principle of something you've spoken about often is about adding value. So can you speak to that? Speak to this person who's a startup founder. I work with a lot of tech founders, I'm a tech investor. Speak to the person about how do you add value when you're sitting there going, I need to bring some money in. I should be thinking about money first, not value first. How do you solve that dilemma?

Dr. John Demartini 14:03
Okay. I have to develop something if you don't mind because I think it's worth putting it out there. We have times when we look down on people and exaggerate ourselves and puff ourselves up and go into pride, maybe arrogance. And think of ourselves more narcissistically than actually them. We get into a kind of a careless mode. And we, we we expect something for nothing. And we exaggerate ourselves. This is an imposter. This is not authentic. This is not who we are. This is not from our heart. This is a puffed up positioning, a superior complex, superiority complex. We also have a time when we do the opposite. We kind of minimize ourselves. We look up to people, we minimize ourselves to them, go out what they've done or haven't done. And we now go into kind of a shame mode. We go into an altruism, will sacrifice for them. I mean, anybody who's been in relationship with anybody, They know if they're in fatuous somebody, they'll sacrifice what's important to them to be with them for fear of loss of them temporarily. And then they'll eventually get, store up their resentments and say, dang, I did this for you, you owe me things. And the other side, we then get resentful, then we talk down to them and expect them to live in our values. So anytime we minimize ourselves or exaggerate ourselves, we're not being ourselves. And when we minimize ourselves , we'll sacrifice our profits because we want to, we don't want to lose people. When we exaggerate ourselves, we'll not meet the needs of the customers because we're not thinking of them, we're thinking of ourselves. So if we think of them and not ourselves, we think of ourselves, not them, neither one of them are sustainable. And so as long as we're under this vast, you know, this volatility and this unstable persona and masks that we want to cover up the real, authentic self, we're going to get symptoms, feedback from our entrepreneur adventures to let us know we're not being true to our self. We're not being authentic. We're not being integral. We're minimizing ourselves to others or exaggerating ourselves to others. But when we actually go in and realize that the customer, the employee, the stakeholder, the shareholder, the people out there in the world, are not greater or less than us, but our equals, Schopenhauer says that we become our true self, to the degree we make everyone else ourselves. Now we care and factor in their needs, their values, their priorities, when we're pursuing our entrepreneurial adventure. But we're not doing it at our expense. And we're not doing ours at their expense, we're factoring them as equals. People want authentic people. And whatever's truly highest on our values is where we're most objective, and most neutral and most caring, and we're most authentic. So finding out the thing that we can't wait to get up in the morning and do, and find out the people who can't wait to get that. Target that niche, what is, that is truly meaningful that you would love to do. You know, the most fulfilling thing in life is to solve a problem. And probably the bigger the problem of humanity, the greater the reward you get in from humanity. So caring enough to have sustainable fair exchange, which is the only thing that helps build long term business, every human being has within them, what equity theory has an internal Geiger counter for fair exchange. And when everybody feels that they're doing it, they want to continue doing business with them. If you've tried to get something for nothing, they don't want to continue. If you try to give something for nothing, you don't want to continue. But if you give something for something, that's a fair exchange, you do it. But people want to know what's in it for me. And so if you care enough about humanity, to find out what their needs are, and focus on the thing that you can't wait to get up in the morning and do so people can't wait to get up in the morning and be with you, you get your niche. So that's the, that's the most important thing. And that's where, why money is a measurement of authenticity. Because when you actually have sustainable fair exchange, you earn the greatest income, and you're being most rewarded, and you're being most authentic, and you're most inspired spontaneously to act. So your spiritual expression and your material manifestation are perfect reflections.

Susan Sly 18:14
Money is a measure of authenticity. So what we did, I have so many questions from that. And I'm taking notes in my right hand. One of the things that comes up when you say that is, first, let's give some examples. You, I mean, you, you know, so many incredible entrepreneurs. In your opinion, who is exemplary at this? Someone who is authentic as an entrepreneur.

Dr. John Demartini 18:44
Well, there's a gentleman who happens to live here on the ship that I live on, who is a billionaire, multi billionaire. He spends most of his time figuring out how to be philanthropic today, but he has one of the most significant companies involved in the area of optical designs. And they call him the most grateful philanthropist on the planet. Forbes labeled him that just a couple of years ago. And I get to have breakfast and lunch with him and dinner with him regularly. He's very much a very dedicated man to serve vast numbers of people. And he's building universities. He's building Medical Education Research Systems, he's worked with Bill Gates, he's done amazing things. Here's a good example of somebody who found out what he loved doing, pursued it relentlessly because he can't wait to get up in the morning and do it. You know, you tap dance to work as Buffett would describe. And he's thinking of people, you know, he's thinking, what are the needs of the people? You know, it's interesting that we, we— finding that blend of thinking about other people, everybody who's concerned, is a huge transformation when people get that. And I was speaking at a church one time, they asked me speak to this church, and they, and I made a statement which shocked people. They, they probably would never ask me back. I said, if you're poor, it's because you're not caring about humanity. And they went, Wait a minute now. I said, because if you caring about humanity, you're going to find out one way or another, how to be able to contribute to theirs, their lives, either directly or indirectly, with some product, service or idea and go out of your way to make a difference. And you're not just focusing on your own problems, you're focused on how to solve theirs. If you don't fill your day with challenges that inspire you, your day fills up with challenge that don't. And the challenge that don't that cause despair, and in a sense, you know, distress is a feedback from the universe to let you know, you're not being authentic, you're thinking of yourself more than others, and it's time to care about someone else. And the moment you do, you get back on track, and all of a sudden, you now start to flourish again. So the universe does a beautiful job at helping you guide you by the events in your life. And I believe that every symptom in a business is a feed back to authenticity. It's just trying to get you back to authenticity. It's teaching you how to care, not careless, not careful, but caring. And that's what keeps rings on fingers and marriages too. So just basically have a caring. And that means that you're not exaggerating you over them and not exaggerating them over you, you're not trying to get something for nothing or give something for nothing. You're not robbing people of dignity, accountability, responsibility with altruistic fantasies. You're basically having people held accountable. And this philanthropist I was just mentioning, he spends as much time trying to figure out how to give his billions away, as he did making it, to make sure that he's thinking about those individuals and not just rescuing them. Don't rob them of dignity, accountability, responsibility, productivity, but actually giving them a catalyst for them to do something extraordinary where they're feeling fulfilled and independent in their lives. How do you do that? And so he's very, very thoughtful of people's needs and the ramifications. What if you give somebody money what's going to happen to the family around him? Are they going to be now entitled? You know, if you do this, are they going to lose incentive? He's thinking, he's caring about people to think about that when he's in philanthropic mode. It's very inspiring to watch.

Susan Sly 22:16
As you're

Susan Sly 22:17
sharing that story, and thank you for that, one of the things that comes to mind, so when John and I are doing the show, the war in Ukraine is going on. So depending when you're listening to it, I know many of you go back, almost 300 episodes or go back and listen. So during Elon Musk moves satellites, over the Ukraine, so they could have internet when the Russians knocked out their internet. And I think of Elon, and he's received a lot of criticism, you know, and it's very easy for someone to criticize something they don't understand. Right? And if anything, from your book, The Breakthrough Experience is part of healing those perceptions, right? And so Elon moves these satellites with no expense to the Ukrainians, he takes on the expense. And some people would say he did it because he was a billionaire. And what I'm hearing you say he's a billionaire, because that's how he thinks.

Susan Sly 22:39
The greater the challenge, the greater the problem that humanity has, that you work on solving, the greater of your life.

Susan Sly 23:23
And so how does

Susan Sly 23:25
someone—

Dr. John Demartini 23:26
It was Seneca. It was Seneca, the Roman poet and, and philosopher, and politician said, you measure an individual by their most distant ends. So how big of space and time do they have in their mind? The magnitude of space and time within your innermost dominant thought determines the level of conscious evolution you've mastered. And if you're not being crucified, you're probably not on purpose. Because in the world, there's pairs of opposites in the values and belief systems. And that's absolutely essential. Just like in the body, you have to have mitosis and growth and apoptosis and death, and parasympathetic and sympathetic. Once anabolic, once catabolic. You have to build and destroy in order to adapt to a changing environment. The world has to have pairs of opposite value systems in the world to adapt to an astronomical environment, this planet needs that for the radiation and everything. So an individual that rises in influence is going to be praised and reprimanded on equal scales. And whatever level of praise and reprimand that you allow into your life will determine the impact you have in your life. So if you're not being crucified, you're probably not on purpose. And the more the praise, the more the reprimand. If you want all this praise, but you don't want reprimand, you're only going to grow to the reprimand you can handle because you're going to make a difference. And anybody that makes a difference going to get first opposed, violently challenged, and eventually becomes self evident with a new paradigm. And you start a new culture. You're not following a culture, you're creating a culture. Maybe you created culture is an unbridled visionary, the Maverick, the misfit, has Jobs would say. And then that individual that transformed society, and that makes the biggest difference in the world.

Susan Sly 25:11
And it's a privilege and it's not easy. We were talking just before we started recording, and I was sharing with John, being in this place where only 2% of US based tech founders are women. And I've had some very interesting experiences and wall kicking moments. And then I stepped back and say, How can I grow from this? Or how can I, it, so I'm turning 50 this year, and so my legacy vision is to be a stan for women in technology at this point in time, so to inspire 1000 women to start tech companies, it's a big vision, and, and really, I think about all the problems those companies are going to solve, and it's really cool to think about. And it's also something that does attract a lot of criticism as well. And it isn't, it isn't easy. How do you suggest, because the wonderful thing about you is you understand the physical, the metaphysical, and the spiritual and the balance. What advice can you give to an entrepreneur who is dealing with criticism? Maybe it's social media criticism, maybe it's criticism from their partner. Why are you starting a business? Maybe it's colleagues, friends, family, how do you suggest they best handle it?

Dr. John Demartini 26:35
I'll make a statement, is probably gonna knock people over for a second. As long as you're addicted to praise, criticism is going to hurt.

Susan Sly 26:44
It's huge.

Dr. John Demartini 26:45
You will never get one without the other. So what I do is I, as long as you have a perception, you got a praise. Without reprimand, you're conscious of the praise and unconscious reprimand. And you store that in the subconscious mind as an impulse to get that again, and become sort of addicting. The same thing on criticism, you get a criticism, and you don't see the praise that simultaneous, you create an instinct to avoid that like a predator versus prey. And now you avoid that. And so you're run externally by this world out there of avoiding criticism and looking for praise, which is futile. As the Buddhist says, the desire for that which is unobtainable, and the desire to avoid that which is unavoidable as a source of human suffering, that now you're trying to get a one sided life instead of embracing the two sides and having mindful. Because as long as you're conscious of one side, not conscious of both sides, and value both sides as a way of keeping you authentic. So if you get support, you tend to puff yourself up and lose your identity and your true identity. The second you get criticism, you get back down into who you are. And the second you get puffed up, the criticism is there to bring you back in equilibrium. And the same you go down the supports, they're there to lift you up. That's why you find out that people get cocky, they end up the tall poppy syndrome brought down and the people that are humbled, they get lifted by society. Same in taxation, people that are very wealthy, they get more taxes than people that are poor, they get less taxes. So made sure equilibrates, Emerson wrote a book on the law of compensation, did a beautiful job on this, to try to wake people up to this realization is transcendental awareness. So what I do is I look at the moment I'm being criticized, I close my eyes, I go, where am I? Where am I? Where's this now it's happening? When is this? What specifically are they doing? What trade action actually doing? Verbal criticism? What's the context? What am I doing this challenging or value and where am I cocky, to need this to be brought down into balance? And then I go, and who is praising me at this moment, locally or non locally? And I'll find out that I'm addicted to a bunch of praise at work and I'm getting nailed at home for instance. I realized this person's trying to get me an authenticity. I'm pumped up and I need that to be brought back into equilibrium. So I asked how is this experience,

Dr. John Demartini 29:11
my soul what specifically, what specifically am I doing to challenging them? They're only criticize me cuz I'm challenging their value structure. Where am I cocky? And where do I need to be brought back in equilibrium humbled? And how is it serving me? I asked those three questions real quick. I have a method that I do that, can I share an interesting story? I, this goes back 40 years now. So 40 years ago I noticed that when I was in practice those days, some days I'd have this really powerful day, make a lot of income. See a lot of patients, get a lot of praise, really acknowledged. And by the end of the day, I'm like, you know, touch me and you'll be healed. I mean, I'm like, you know, puffed up, you know, who just, you know, King John or something, right? I'm puffed up a bit. And then I noticed I would drive home and my spouse would just nail me. Just slam me back and you didn't forget, you forgot this, you didn't do this something else. I think, Oh, she's toxic. And I would basically judge her for being negative, right? And then I thought, wait a minute, now, whenever I'm puffed up, I'm getting that. And then when I was down, I have a day ago, oh, what a day. She'd be lifting me up, massaging my shoulders and stuff, and go, what's going down?

Dr. John Demartini 30:26
And then I started to do an experiment. I started to self govern myself. Because I said, if you'd not governed from within, you end up ending up having to be governed from without, and the government from the out is the events in your life trying to get you back to authenticity. Because if you're not being authentic, you need to be put back into authentic. So the universe works on that behalf. All your symptoms in your business, in your social life, or that your family, it's all trying to get you authentic. The purpose of relationships is authenticity. Not happiness, but authenticity. So what I did is I asked myself, and I still got those questions now on my computer. Who, What name did I not use today with my patients? What staff member did I not thank? What procedure do I overlook? What birthday did not acknowledge? What anniversary did I not thank? What procedures you know, what paperwork did I not complete? And I humbled myself. And I noticed that whenever I got back to authenticity, you had tear of gratitude. A tear of gratitude, which is a confirmation, I'm now me. And so I asked these questions. As I'm, before I go home, I didn't go home until I asked these questions. So I was actually grateful for the opportunity to serve and grateful for my clients and my staff. And I was back in equilibrium. I would drive home in that attitude, I had amazing difference when I got home with my wife. It's like, well, there's some sort of quantum entanglement almost going on between my wife and I, when I'm cocky, she brings me down, when I'm humble, she lifts me up. And I'm doing the same to her. We're both keeping each other in authenticity. And if I had a really down day, what did I do? Who did I serve? What names did I remember? And I asked the reverse questions. And I did not go home until I was in a tear of gratitude. That way I can be thankful for my staff, thankful for my patients, thankful for my own work. Thankful for everything that happened that day. Gratitude is a confirmation that you're seeing things authentically, and I don't mean, thank you, thank you, thank you gratitude. But I mean a deep gratitude for seeing the pairs of opposites in nature providing to guide us back into authenticity. And the moment I did that, I got love when I got back. And I realized, wow, I'm learning how to govern myself. And this is a basically, on the second I did, I noticed the volunteer. I looked at my stats, and the volume of my business is still going up and down. Because if I came home cocky, and she'd nailed me, I'd have a poor sleep that night, I wake up trash to go there, the next day, I'd go the other direction. And I'm letting the external world run me by my addiction to praise and my avoidance of criticism. And I then realized, wait a minute, these are mechanisms just to try to keep me authentic. And when I brought myself and authenticity without having to wait and have the world to do it, I was in the flow. And that was, and my business stats showed steady growth. Because now I'm in sustainability. I'm not trying to get something for nothing, I'm not trying to give something for nothing. I'm just caring about all the people involved, because I've got them on my list to make sure I'm cognizant of them and not just focusing on me. And when I did, my business went stable. And I valued myself to have my forced accelerated savings and investments. I valued my philanthropic, I valued my, my, what I could do for clients. I valued their names. And I remember their, I'm remembering their names, I'm hearing their birthdays and anniversaries, which made it special, which grew my business. I mean, I would call them and sing Happy Birthday to clients. And people thought, what? And they would tell, you got to hear this guy, they would take that, and then the recording, they show it to people and I get new clients out of it. Because I was now balanced again. I had equanimity within myself and equity between myself and all the people that I was around. So then I really believe that to the world, and business is a magnificent pursuit of learning how to be authentic in a way that serves sustainably other people. And the reward is the financial return and the philanthropic impact you can make with that.

Susan Sly 34:20
John, that is so profound. And it's the, and thank you for your humility, because that's what you know, people look at someone who's achieved what you've achieved, and they can tell them, they can go into story, right? And we know when someone's in a story, they're either going, it's going to put them in a good state or it's going to put them in a negative state but either way, there's a self serving state there that's feeding something for them. Right? And and I love how you shared that. And the Apostle Paul said, I thank you for this thorn in my side. Right? And that gratitude of, especially in business and relationships, even with health, to sit there, I love what you said, You didn't leave until you had that tear of gratitude. Dave Asprey, and I'm sure you know this, so one of Dave's projects, because you know Dave is always biohacking, obviously. So he is doing gratitude research at one of his labs in California. And he has executives coming in. And one of the things he found was, they actually, from their biofeedback, we're not reaching the state of true gratitude. And so if anyone listening is familiar with David Hawkins work, you know, gratitude has such a high calibrated level of consciousness. And so someone can say, well, oh, John, thanks for being on the show, but to be moved to gratitude, to be profoundly impacted to the tear, right? So can you share, and I know, you know, we're coming to the point of the end, and there's so many things I want to ask you. But I'd love to hear from you. In your, in your definition, what does true gratitude look like?

Dr. John Demartini 36:14
Thank you for that question. That's a meaningful question to me. We have a executive functioning center, in the prefrontal cortex, where we're able to have inspired visions, strategic planning, executing plans and self governance. We also have a subcortical area, even though it's still in telencephalon. That's called the amygdala. It's part of the limbic system.

Dr. John Demartini 36:40
The executive center is what they call systems to thinking where we're thinking before we react, and the amygdala is systems, one thinking, we're reacting before we think. The amygdala wants to avoid predator and seek prey, it's in survival mode. And so it has impulses towards the food and instincts away from being. So anything that supports its value has an impulse towards anything that challenges values as an instinct to act. And so from the Maitlis perspective, gratitude is when you support me, thank you. And it's a very superficial form. And it's easy to say thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you when somebody supporting you, but when they challenge you, you have a different four letter word for them. It's a different statement, you know. And so those are superficial forms that most people are confusing with gratitude. So I use that as just the superficial gratitude. And then there's a deep grace. And I say grace, and there's a reason why I use the word, Grace. It's a grace. Yes, it's a mercy. It's a, it's a state beyond that. When you actually see the pairs of opposites, mindfully, both sides simultaneous, you see the supporter and the challenger. And you know, the supporters puffing up, the challenger bringing you down. And they're both there, keep you centered and authentic, and keep you in your heart. And when you are able to take the challenges that you have and see that they're actually on the way, not in the way, and they're keeping you from your addiction with your amygdala to the praise, and keeping you centered of being on a mission, is different than a person who's trying to be good. Now, it's not a moral of hypocrisy. It's actually a man on a mission, I call it. A woman on a mission. In that mode, your autonomic nervous system, because when you're supported, your parasympathetic comes in anabolic. When you're challenged, your sympathetic comes in fight or flight, catabolic. When you put those in perfect balance, and they're not lateralized, polarized, they're balanced, you have a intracardiac reflex in back in the brain, and then the heart, I mean, that actually from the executive center to the heart is opened. And we have perfect rhythm in the heart. And we feel an opening in our heart. And we see the hidden order that's in the apparent chaos. And so the challenge that we thought was there, we now go, thank you. It's helping me authentic. It's helping me maximize my potential and maximize my contribution and service. I couldn't, I was addicted to my fantasy of being supported. I now see you're helping me be authentic. And you're in a state of grace. In that mode, the sympathetic nervous reflexes that go into the muscles and the parasympathetic balance, and the agonist and antagonist muscles between extensors and flexors and supinators and pronators, they all balance, and your body is gracefully able to move without trepidation. And so our body is in a state of grace, we're in a state of grace. And we're in a state of gratitude for the order as it is not as we fantasizing one in. We're thankful as it is. Thankfulness for what is. Our human will is now matching what the theologians is to call what is divine will. When we are infatuated with somebody, we want to change ourselves to be like them. When we resemble somebody, we want to change them to be like us and we're ungrateful for our existence. When we're in balance, we're grateful for the opportunity to be of service to them in fair exchange. And we see the order. We realize that they're challenges and feedback is guiding us to make a more powerful business. We need their criticism, we need the criticism, our staff. I gotta show this, Jeff Bezos did a little video about Sony, I bet it probably everybody seen it. And he went on and said, we wanted to be the customer centric, you know, company exemplified that. And he did, he focused on the customer, and he built this massive business. But then he realized recently, that he was not putting that same focus on his employees as it was there. So what nature did is it brought in a union, a teamsters union to come in to say, we need a little bit more fair exchange. Now we, you could see that as Oh, that's, those greedy son of the guns or whatever. But no, if you're wise, you go, no, that's just letting you know that you're now focusing on the customer, but you're not focusing on the employees. So that's nature bringing in the employees to make sure that everybody's getting wins. They want to go to work and serve more people. And then all of a sudden, you now realize there's other companies that go out of business because of that company. And so then the government comes in and says, No, we got to make sure that there's not an anti trust system here and no monopoly here. And so all the symptoms in business are feedback mechanisms to expand your conscious awareness of all the inclusive people instead of the people you're excluding. It's guiding you to master your life and master your spiritual quest and master your contribution on the planet. I really believe that every symptom is, is on the way, not in the way and is part of your master plan that is inherently working itself through your existence.

Susan Sly 41:40
John, wow. That was in a very eloquent response, but just wow. And, and, and thank you so much, from the bottom of my heart for how you explained that. And, and I hope everyone listening is getting the, this, this feeling from John because it's, it's not even something easily describable. It's just a feeling that John radiates in, because as he shares his wisdom, and understanding, there's obviously, for some of you, and please do write in, I'd love to hear from you. This, this awareness that's coming forth to say, Oh, I've been out of alignment, and that's why I'm stuck. And that the people, the critics, whoever it is, that are coming in, are putting me back in balance, putting me back in integrity, putting me back in authenticity, because that's where I'm going to begin to really grow. So my last question for you is around legacy. So you've, you've accomplished so many things, and you've transformed millions of people's lives, myself included. It was really, as I said, it was your book at that time in my life that really shifted the trajectory. And so thank you. Normally, I'm not super emotional in a show, but I am with you. But what is your legacy? You know, what, what are the next, you know, four plus decades, there's, you know, there are people who are working on saying, hey, let's live to 150. There are people who are saying, hey, let's let's end poverty, or you know, what is your legacy?

Dr. John Demartini 43:31
Well, you know, I've learned at age 27, I bought this book called The Time Trap by Alec McKenzie. And from that exercise, I developed an exercise for that about prioritizing what I do every day and delegating everything else. So I'm pretty useless, except for teaching, researching, writing. That's about, that's my core competence. I haven't driven a car in 30 years, I haven't, you know, cooked since I was 24. You know, I jokingly say to my girlfriend, look, if I was to delegate my lovemaking to Hugh Jackman, would you still love me? And she says, Absolutely. You know, so I kind of delegate. That's supposed to be a joke. I wouldn't, I don't take that seriously. But the point is, I delegate everything. And I'd rather surround myself with people that love doing what I would love to delegate, so I don't have to be burdened by anything other than what inspires me. I want to just do what inspires me, which is teach, research, and write. So I want to continue teaching, researching and writing. And as long as there's any possible medium—podcasts, webinars, movies, books, I just signed a 20 book deal. 10 books with one company, 10 books another. So there's 20 more books that will come. So I'm constantly doing whatever I can to disseminate information and research and learn every imaginable thing that would maximize human awareness potential and the evolvement of human consciousness and contribution from every possible discipline and field I can, and just continue disseminating information on that. And I, that's what I love doing and that's what I will hope to do the rest of my life. I'm sure on my last day, I've asked people if I'm 100, will they come to a seminar? And they're always saying, we're waiting, we're waiting, we're waiting. So I'll probably be doing that. As long as this body is going, I'll be doing some sort of teaching and research and writing.

Susan Sly 45:16
This is a topic for another day. My friend, Mark Divine, who's been on the show, you know, I was a student of David Hawkins, and Mark has read all of David's books. And, and so the, the ongoing debate we have is, will the consciousness exceed the body like it did with David, and then David died? And I believe that's what happened with Wayne. So the question is, in this quest for longevity, and there, are they approaching it in the wrong way and saying, oh, okay, well, if we do all the vitamins and the nootropics, and we do all these things, because if the consciousness exceeds the body, and it's the body, it doesn't matter. So that's a whole other topic of conversation. But, John—

Dr. John Demartini 45:59
Can I share one more story? Can I share one more story?

Susan Sly 46:02
You can share any anything, Yes.

Dr. John Demartini 46:05
Okay. I was in Rome, in 1999, teaching in my signature program, The Breakhrough Experience which I've now taught 1,143 times. And at the time, I had this magnificent break too. The're a great group of people. And on the following day, a lovely lady named asked if she would like to have me taken through the city to see anything else I hadn't seen before I have to fly out that afternoon. I said absolutely. So went and spent the morning walking through Rome. And we came at the lunch period, to a square that was roped off about the size of sort of like the small football field. And it was all roped off, and it was covered in red rose petals. So we're talking about millions of red rose petals covering the square. And the center of the square was a, a bronze statue sitting on a marble base of Giordano Bruno, who is an astronomer, theologian, philosopher, four centuries earlier, who they burned at the stake for believing that we lived in an infinite universe with infinite worlds with infinite beings. There was no exoplanets known at the time. But now we know there's over 5000 planets been discovered and identified, and continuing to grow. In the process of doing that, I saw that and I, 400 years after he was burned at the stake, they're now honoring him as a genius 400 years out of his time. They're honoring him. Now before he would burn at the stake, for stating what was true, everything he said was true. And those components, they burned him for. Because he was such a renegade ahead of his time, he could see things that no people can see. He wrote a post humanist biography of how he wanted to be perceived 500 years into the future. So I read through this thing, and I realized it brought me tears, because I realized, this is now manifesting what he wrote. We go around and we say we're immortal souls but so few people write immortal goals. Goals beyond their own mortality. So I have, that night, I decided, with tears in my eyes, to write a posthumous biography. And it was one of those things like Jerry Maguire with Tom Cruise, he was writing with tears in his eyes and just one of those spontaneous writings. And it came out 23 pages of spontaneous writing. I mean, literally various fine print. I just, of how I wanted to be perceived 1000 years from now. What would Wikipedia say? That kind of thing. And I wrote it all out. And it was very detailed. And I have been refining it since 1999. Every time I read it, I edit it, play with it. How do I want to be perceived? The impact on it. Because I'm a believer that, that if you create a goal and get totally present, and when you write it, feels it's immortal and you feel it's impossible for you not to fulfill it until it's your destiny, if you get it really clear, you've manifested. So I did that 1999. 1 decade later, in 2009, I was asked to speak at the Melk Abbey, which is on, in Austria over the Danube. And this is a magnificent Abbey. I mean beautiful. And the chapels are like the Sistine Chapel. And there were 200 people in attendance. There were 12 speakers there. The Dalai Lama was there. Muhammad Yunus was there, Bill Singer was there, Paul Nurse was there, and these are great people that have left marks. Nobel Prize winners, etc. And they asked me to be one of those 12 speakers. And I was there to share my Demartini method on conflict resolution and how to transcend the perception of conflict. Afterwards, after I did my presentation on Saturday night, they asked all the speakers to come into the library. So if you look at Melk Abbey library, you'll see it. It's a magnificent room, it looks like a Sistine Chapel. Books everywhere. And they put us in a semi circle and lined us up in a semicircle with all the 200 people there, the media was there. And they handed us a stainless steel cylinder

Dr. John Demartini 50:31
that was about 12 inches long. And in there was scroll paper of 365 quotations extracted from some of my books and my Demartini method, which is on conflict resolution, calligraphied on scroll paper with a ribbon around it, put inside, vacuum sealed with there's no air, no bacteria. And they handed it to us. And then in a you know, procession, we walked down to the infinity of divinity library room. At the end of that library, there's a special vaulted room where they open up the ball. And they store scrolls to be stored for hundreds to thousands of years. And in there is a 12 foot infinity of divinity library shelf. And it was a completely blank shelf. And they asked, and I was the first one to be able to put it right directly into the center of the Infinity bin. And I've been using the term infinity divinity versus affinity to humanity for 40 years, 45 years speaking about it. And I couldn't believe I got to put my mission statement, my message, my quotations into that place to be sealed for a thousand years. So I'm a firm believer that if we actually set goals, beyond our mortality, I wrote a book called The Secrets of Immortality, i's a little small book that I wrote in seven days, on how to immortalize your ideas, your business, your finances, your relationships, all areas of life. And I really believe that, that we don't give ourselves permission. Every time we live authentically, the space and time horizons in our life of what we want to envision and achieve, grow, and eventually reach beyond our life. And the moment we do, we're in such grace that our body maximizes, use stress, not distress and wellness, and the telomeres grow, to expand our potential to live longer, to fulfill a longer vision. So I'm a firm believer of giving ourselves permission to shine not shrink, and to live and do something that's inspiring, not despiring, and giving ourselves permission to contribute instead of just be immediate gratifying with the amygdala.

Susan Sly 52:45
John, thank you for sharing. And the visual of, of what you share, you know, putting your, your works into this vault and, and thinking about someone 1000 years from now, taking that, and you know, really, thank you because there are many things about the times we're living in now that perhaps we wouldn't want people 1000 years in the future to say that marks this time. I think that it's so powerful that your words are going to be a shining light of marking this time in our history. So thank you. John, I cannot thank you enough. I mean, I feel so blessed and humbled. I've been looking forward to our talk for a very, very long time. And, and thank you for sharing your wisdom, and your vulnerability and your truth. And, you know, I know my husband listens to every episode, so he'll be the first to say he doesn't want Hugh Jackman to be his stand in our relationship. But don't worry, honey, no, it's after 20, almost 23 years, it's okay. You still, you still, have the, that you know. But thank you. And how would you like people to connect with you? You have some incredible free resources on your website. And I would love everyone to, John, John, I mean, you could spend the rest of your lifetime studying John's work. So Drdemartini.com. So it's Dr, D-R, not written out. Drdemartini.com. And follow John on Instagram and also Facebook. And he lives on a ship. And so he, he's traveling all the time. John, final words for everyone listening.

Dr. John Demartini 54:49
The magnificence of who you truly are is far greater than any fantasies about yourself that you impose on yourself. You don't need to compare yourself to any other human being. You just want to compare your own daily actions to what's truly, deeply meaningful from your heart. That's where you'll give yourself permission to shine not shrink. And to do something magnificent in contribution. So just honor yourself. You don't want to be second if being somebody else being, first being there.

Susan Sly 55:22
Thank you. Well, everyone, this has been another episode of Raw and Real Entrepreneurship. And if you would love to share your thoughts and comments, please go ahead, go to Susansly.com. I read all of your letters. So by all means, if this episode has been helpful, we would love for you to share it on social, tag us both on social. And with that, you know, the goal of the show is always to keep it raw and real, to come from the heart, and know that as an entrepreneur, the climb is sometimes tough, but definitely those vistas, they're absolutely amazing. So thank you again, John, for being here. God bless to all of you, and I will see you in a future episode.

Dr. John Demartini 56:03
Thank you.