299. Interview with Karthik Suresh, Co-Founder of Ignition: Navigating the Current Venture Capital Market and Staying Resilient

Susan Sly 00:02
This is Raw and Real Entrepreneurship, the show that brings the no nonsense truth of what is required to start, grow and scale your business. I am your host, Susan Sly.

Susan Sly 00:16
Well, what is up Raw and Real Entrepreneurs, I hope you're having an amazing day wherever you are in the world. And my guest today has become a friend, not just a LinkedIn friend. He's someone I deeply admire and respect. And we have some stories that are very, very similar. And he is not only an incredible founder, he's a serial entrepreneur and on top of everything, he's resilient, which is so cool. So he is the co founder of ignition, which is a collaborative hub for marketing and product teams to plan, execute, and measure the go to market side of launching and they have the coolest website, I have to say. Karthik is a product and a technology leader with experience as a founder an early startup hire any key player in defining product strategy and finding a market fit. He has extensive experience building products in consumer enterprise and data domains across early stage and established companies. So Karthik Suresh is the co founder of ignition and an awesome human in my humble opinion. Karthik, it's so good to see you.

Karthik Suresh 01:27
Thank you so much for that amazing intro. Yeah. Excited. Looking forward to our conversation right now.

Susan Sly 01:32
Well, Karthik, I am jumping in right now. This is Raw and Real Entrepreneurship. I want to start with fundraising. So there is a lot of very interesting things happening right now. Because we're hearing about a ton of layoffs in tech. I was just, this morning, the day we're doing the show, I was at a breakfast hosted by Snowflake and people are talking about tech layoffs then there are companies like Snowflake that are hiring, then they're talking about a VC drought, then I know VCs, they've just opened big funds. So in your opinion, what in the world is going on for startups that want to raise money right now in this climate?

Karthik Suresh 02:11
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question to start off topic with. So yeah, literally, yesterday, I was talking with a few VC friends of mine. And what they're, what they're saying is like, everyone is trying to hold on to their cards close to his chest, and everyone's holding on to their money. They're just trying to support the existing portfolio companies from dying to they're almost like figuring out among all my portfolio companies, which are the ones I should support, and which are the ones I should make sure they stay alive to this downturn, and make sure I can give them enough money, so that they make it through and then eventually succeed. So a lot of the focus, unlike last year, which was all about getting new investments, I feel like most of the energy is right now on on making sure the existing investments live and don't die to the next, to this downturn.

Susan Sly 03:01
That's so interesting, you say that, because one of the things I'm noticing with VCs is, there's a very fascinating phenomenon happening about initial cheque size. So to your point, instead of just writing big checks, we were seeing big checks happening '21, '20, here's a big check, go for it. It's like, okay, we're gonna give you a little check and then we're gonna see how you're doing and then we're going to give you another little check, but it's going to add up to a bigger check. In the end, it's almost like vesting your options. I have not seen that as much as I'm seeing that right now. Is that something else you're hearing about?

Karthik Suresh 03:46
Yeah, absolutely. And also the valuations. The valuations has come down quite a bit, I mean, understandably, but it's almost like, there's a fine line on valuations where you almost disincentivizing the founders, if you then take too much as an investor, because then there's no incentive for the founder who's gonna get diluted multiple times to multiple rounds with a series of expires. So they will probably look to exit sooner than actually building really significant companies. So there's all of these second order effects, which doesn't seem like it's making an impact. So for example, I was talking to this VC from, it's a tier one VC fund. And I was talking to him and he was like, you know, if you're writing a seed check, why do you care? Seed round, it's going to take five to seven years for the company, if successful, to make it big, get acquired or you know, become a unicorn or decacorn like, why do you care right now what the interest rates are, and then like, what the valuation is, like, you're not you're not haggling for 8% versus 10% equity stake, like, Come on, give me a break. And he's like, No, but that's not how it works. You know, we have LPs who invest in our fund and we need to give, them show them progress because they need to report whatever funds they have. And all what matters is your next round. It's like can we show a markup in our investment which we make today, in the next round, and we don't know how long this downturn is gonna last. So yeah, in reality, the story is, yeah, we are investing for the long term, you know, your seed stage, we just care about your team and all that. But in reality, it's a pure financial play, it's basically thinking about, okay, when even then these people go raise the next round, can I show enough markup to my LP, so you know, they can then get a markup, and we all can go home, take some bonuses and be happy. So it's a, it's such a different story versus reality kind of market right now.

Susan Sly 05:37
I had, because, you know, since were friends and 1000s of people are listening to our conversation. So I had someone from Silicon Valley. He was like, I wish you were my CEO. And he's like, I know that the company I'm with is going to have to do a down round, because there are companies that raised at unicorn valuations, some of them early '21, late '20, that they raised on multipliers. Like we're talking multipliers of like, 100x ARR like, just crazy multipliers. I know one company that hit a billion dollar valuation with like, no revenue, like, right? And so now he's like, now my stock is worthless, and we have to do a down round. And for people who don't know what that is, what Karthik was talking about is when a company raises money at a certain valuation and then the next round, the climate has changed, the market has changed, the company has changed, now they have to raise it at a lower valuation because they need money. And so a lot of those companies are doing these down rounds now. So it is a crazy time to be out there. It's not for the faint of heart. And you are very experienced. So your previous company, one of my, one of the reason I say Karthik is resilient, there's so many reasons. But one of my favorite stories you tell is in your previous company, how many VC conversations you've had to have to get to a term sheet. Can you talk about that? Talk about like, you know, talk about what the company was doing, what the fundraising climate was? Because this is a crazy story.

Karthik Suresh 07:25
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great story to share. So before I, before I start on that story, just to add to your previous point, yeah, I think it's not completely on the VCs as well, because the last two years, the founders raised an insane valuation, knowing well, that there's going to be consequences. Exactly. So I know a company which was generating 3 billion in revenue, they raised a series B at 300 million valuation. And obviously, they're, everyone's going to be diluted underwater. So there is, there's a lot of that as well. So it's on both sides, to be honest. So the last two years were unprecedented in terms of like the whole VC play with such cheap money, and liquidity in the market. And unfortunately, we are seeing some of the consequences trickle down to people who were not even like, in the game, then. So, but now, it's now, comes back, coming back to the story of my previous startup there. So right now it's a series B Company. And when we are raising our seed round, this is in way, way back in 20, I think 2018, 2019. So pre COVID times. So the markets were still saying then, and everything was like, you know, reasonable valuations. There, you know, when you when we're, when we're looking to raise a seed round, so it, typically when you raise a seed round, you don't have any metrics to show. So it's mainly you're investing based on the team and the product and the vision. But so it's like, it took us almost 35 conversations over nine months across both East Coast and West Coast to get our first term sheet. So term sheet is from a lead investor who's agreeing to lead our seed round, excruciating. But here's the funny part. Like once we got our term sheet, we got oversubscribed the next week. So a lot of the people who had said no earlier on, like, as soon as we got this term sheet from this famous VC fund, they Oh, yeah. Oh, that's great. I want in, I want in. Like what changed? Because seeds aren't based on conviction. So like, that means you're saying you didn't have connection then and this because this investor is investing now you've suddenly got connection out of nowhere? Obviously, I didn't say that. I'm happy to take their money. But, you know, that's kind of what happened and run was close. So it's such a, it's almost a game you know, especially in the earliest, earlier stage of the company.

Susan Sly 09:48
Like so many questions, okay. So, I have to reverse engineer my questions. So how did the other VCs find out that you had gone under term and then like, when you finally got that term sheet, like, was it what you wanted or did you negotiate it? I need to know everything.

Karthik Suresh 10:10
Yeah. So in that round, so we're, we're, we're happy having all these conversations, and we got a term sheet from a lead investor. So I think we are raising about 3 million. So we got a term sheet for one and a half million, so it's half to round. So I think those days, the valuation I think was like 18 million, or something, like 18 to 20 million. It's intended in terms of seed. And so it was like, you're trying to raise three, three on 18, or something like that. So we got a term sheet for one and a half million. And it was, there's no, there's no crazy terms, because the other things we need to watch out for is like liquidation preference, participation preference. If, as a founder, you're not familiar those, familiar with those terms, I would highly recommend you look them up and make sure you very well know about them before going into a negotiation with a VC fund. But it was pretty straightforward. There was no issues there. But once we had the term sheet for 1.5 million, once we got it, then again, that came from the network, which I'll talk about in the next next topic, which is like how important your network is, especially as your early stage, because a lot of this is done because people know you were just like, you know, you have a really compelling vision or a mission you're trying to solve. But you know, we got the term sheet because from our network, and then we had to go raise the other one and a half million. So we went back in the market. So we pinged all our investors, all the VC funds who we had talked to before. And that's when we they're like, oh, yeah, okay, count me in. And I'm like what, but you just said no. And in fact, we were oversubscribed. So we went from struggling to raise even $1 to actually going to say no to investors, because our round was oversubscribed. Right? So. And this happened in one week. So it was like nine months of conversations and one week that all was closed.

Susan Sly 12:08
And how long did it take from going to turn to the money hitting your bank account?

Karthik Suresh 12:14
Yeah, so that I think took about two, two and a half months with all the due diligence, because once you get a term sheet, that doesn't mean anything, it's just more that you entering a due diligence process. So you know, you prepare a data room, share all the, I mean, at the early stage company, you don't have a lot to share. But if you're a later stage company, then obviously you know, that's the main thing where you want to look at all your customer metrics. And if your SAS and all the SAS metrics before finalizing the deal, but yeah, it took two and a half months. So it was all about due diligence, making sure all the contracts, employee agreements, all the things you said were actually true. And then you know, going going to the bunch of legal negotiations. Lawyers on their side, lawyers on our side. Here's another thing, I don't understand why it's like the VC firm funds make the founders paid their legal fee. And we had to do that even now, even in, even in my current startup. I just don't understand like, why that's a thing. Of course, in this market, I would happily do that. That's a different story. But in general, like that was like, obviously dealing with their lawyers, paying their legal fee, and it costs us something like 50k, legal fees alone on both sides, with 25k each to actually do a price round, then, you know, you show all the shares, get all the DocuSign dance, the whole process, I think took two, two and a half months. So what we did is like, we probably shoot a couple of safe notes to get the money in the bank to extend our runway with some of our existing investors or angels to make sure we have enough money in the bank before the big cheque hits our bank account.

Susan Sly 13:46
So from the two, two and a half months, you're under due diligence. And I am very aware of that process. Because the VC will do, they'll send over the list of all of the items they want in that data room. And so generally speaking for the listeners, the data room, your attorney, if you don't have an in house counsel, your attorney, external counsel is going to hold the data room, and you're going to start populating that stuff. And I think going back in time, my best piece of advice for founders is document everything and create whatever it is you use, whether it's you know, Google or Microsoft or whatever, create a folder just for your founders and start putting documentation in there. So and then thinking about months before you want that money to hit, start creating what will be a data room and you can go online and find out the types of things these VCs are going to want. And then from the time you had the first conversation to the time you went under term with that VC, what was the length of time there?

Karthik Suresh 14:58
That was like, I would say, approximately two to three weeks, three weeks. So it was like our initial call, pitch call, then a more detailed call, then a call with each of the partners in their fund. And then and then the main the lead, then you know, I think then had to create investment memo, take it to the Investment Committee, get approval, and then you get a term sheet. So the whole, and that was fast. So it took about three weeks then to going from the very first conversation to actually getting a term sheet with that investor.

Susan Sly 15:34
And how did your team keep your, I guess, mental and emotional energy up? Because that's a long period of time. 75 conversations plus you have a company to run, you have product to build, you have customers to acquire. I mean, there's no list of things, this becomes like a full time job on top of a full time job. So how did you maintain the right mental and physical state to be able to do that?

Karthik Suresh 16:01
Yeah, that's a great question. And it's because like, that's number, that's the number one skill you need as a founder and entrepreneur, is like literally being able to persevere, and then have patience and wait through this crazy emotional roller coaster. Because on day one, like one day, you're like, Okay, your VC said, Okay, let's move on to the next call, or next to a partner page. And you're like, oh, yeah, and then you're like, uplifted, and then the partner page doesn't go well, and you don't get it. Oh, my God, I need to go through the whole process again with another friend. And then it's just same cycle again, again, again, and it actually goes through, especially in early stage. So I think for us, it was, I think we believed in our mission, that's why it's so important to have a, just really working on a strong mission you believe in because you know this problem has to be solved, you know this product has to exist in the world. And you know, the VC is more of a communication issue. It's a financial play but the real question is like, Do you have a business, are you solving a real problem and focusing on that, and keeping that motivating, motivating you every day. In addition, you know, as always into fitness, like whether you're doing yoga, meditation, whatever it is, just to take, take your mind outside of work. Otherwise, you tend to get obsessed, especially as an entrepreneur, because it's almost a baby, so but that's actually harmful, you need to definitely take time out and then do other things which interests you, even though it might seem like you're not dedicating your 100%. So those are two ways I would say like focusing on the mission, and then like doubling down on that, making sure that you have the conviction. And the conviction is not changed, because of all these knows, and then also making sure you take time outside work, to focus on you know, whatever you do, whether it's family, hobbies, or anything else, that's all kind of procedure to this emotional roller coaster.

Susan Sly 17:55
That's great advice. And it's the, as someone said to me once, it was like, you've got to put on your founder hat today. So are you, do you have your founder hat on? Is it on good and tight, because you need it. And it's, it is exhausting at times. I mean, really like that I was telling you, like, we did a three hour presentation. And then I go into a meeting. And VCs like pitch now and I'm like, okay, okay. And to be, to get to the place where if someone wakes you up at three in the morning says, you need to do your pitch right now that you're able to do it. And that's why. It's like, I you know, I feel so grateful. We're talking before we started the show, just knowing people like you. And we're all in this together because we're we're all doing the same things. And it is, at times it is so challenging. During this time, and we're gonna switch gears because once you've gone through this once you gain a tremendous amount of knowledge and wisdom. During this time, can you recall a moment when you had what I call WKM's, Karthik, wall kicking moments where you're just like, did you go through that?

Karthik Suresh 19:12
Yeah, happens more often than I would like. Yeah, I mean, I think that it's a, it's just part of the founder journey. I feel like it's, I mean, not just with fundraising, but pretty much with everything going on. Whether you are a new customer who's been hard on you, or a new sales hire, which you just did, was not hitting the targets or an engineer who was not delivering, like it could be anything in the company. There's like a million things which could be thrown at you on any given day. And unlike a stable job at a big tech company, you know, it's not like you're gonna keep getting your salary, irrespective of your consequences of your product. So, there are multiple of such moments, especially in the current market conditions where your execution has to be really, really tight, there is no leeway for any mistakes. And the runway is like, you know, so critical for a founder. And yeah, so yeah, this is like, again a part of the perseverance, making sure that we have, we are resilient and we are, you know, we persevere through this whole process in order to be successful.

Susan Sly 20:24
Yeah, definitely. It is not for people who can't operate well under pressure like, that is just, I would say, if you cannot operate well under pressure, start a different kind of a business. This is like, don't be a tech founder and like, go work at a tech company, understand it from the inside out before you do it. So you, you go from this company, to your current company, and talk about that journey. Because this, like, what Ignition is doing is so cool. But how did you go from, Okay, now we've got funding, and just finish that story. Because you went, you know, then that company continued to grow. And then now you're here. So what happened after you got finally you bring in this $3 million dollars? What happened then?

Karthik Suresh 21:12
Yeah, so the company continued to grow, we really found a strong product market fit in our supply chain space. And today, it's a series B Company, they just raised 150 million, I'm no longer with the company. I was there till series A and then, so the company is doing really well, I'm so happy for them. And I joined Facebook as a pm after being there for four years. I joined them as a second employee, basically. So I was like, Okay, now I need to learn how to build products at scale because I've been working in early stage companies for a long time. So I decided to join Facebook. Also, obviously, the perks were great, you know, being a startup founder. And then I really wanted to get the perks and almost like, take a little bit of a break for a couple of years, while learning to build products at scale. It's funny how, and I'm describing it right now. Because a lot of other other colleagues I speak to, they're like, Oh, my God, Facebook is such a slog, I worked and workied so hard. And for me, it was was like, I'm actually relaxing. I don't have to deal with legal or deal with like, investor, I don't ever deal with any of the HR issues. I'm like, i jsut do my job and like, I need to go do my thing.

Susan Sly 22:29
I get my benefits, I don't have to worry about where the money's coming from to pay those benefits. Yeah, you went from 100 hours a week to like 60, it was fabulous.

Karthik Suresh 22:39
It's fabulous, actually finally got some time for my own hobbies and all that. So it just, it's interesting, the way I'm actually describing to you. But after that, you know, being like, you know, having an entrepreneurial mindset, I was like, I was already itching. I was ready to go. And at Facebook, I was looking to, you know, I was basically launching all these devices. And seems like there's a lot of structured processes around product development, but not our product launches. For example, the product launch process, there was a spreadsheet with 100 tabs, and nobody, there's a tab to keep track of other tabs. So nobody knew where anything was. So I'm like, There's has to be a better way to manage this go to market process, the launch process, there's so many stakeholders. So I met my co founder, Derek, through this platform called On Tech, which is like a community of people looking to start companies. I almost like went through co founder dating like nine months, talk to different people before like, Okay, I want to start this company with you. It's funny, it's almost like marriage, it's like, Okay, let's get married. And let's have a baby. It's a very similar, you know, analogy, even though it sounds funny, because you're committing to at least like five to seven years of your life with this person and building the successful company. So I then started this company with Derek, and who's also, was also in product marketing for a while. So basically, Ignition is a platform to help you manage your go to market plans and product launches and processes, and really think about, you know, what's the best way to help you once you build a product. How do you manage the product launch process? And then, you know, we've been going, we've been running it for about two years now. It's been exciting. So yeah, I'd love to get any feedback.

Susan Sly 24:30
So where's your funding now? And where's the company now in terms of number of employees and the year and a half to talk about valuation, but like, I'd love to hear where that is at.

Karthik Suresh 24:43
Yeah. So we raised close to 5 million. We are seed stage. So we are still early stage. We have about 10 people, mostly engineers, as you can imagine at this stage of the company. It's me, my co founder. Co founder does most of the you know, it's like build, and the sell. That's how we divide between ourselves. So I do a lot of the build part, he does a lot of the sell part. And we just launched from, we just came out of beta, and launched on Product Hunt last month. So now we are actually trying to grow and acquire customers. So that's kind of where we are. And the valuation, thankfully, we didn't raise it crazy. Thankfully, like we didn't raise it like ridiculous valuations. So I feel like we are still in the game without having to worry about raising a down round or having to get diluted when the markets get back up. But yeah, that's kind of where we are.

Susan Sly 25:36
I love that you're such an optimist- when the markets get back up, because I'm an optimist, too, right? This is everything for a season. And I feel like if we can raise money in this season, if we can get our products in the market in this season, look at all the companies in last recession that are household names- Uber, Airbnb, Instagram, that were all started around people's kitchen tables, or at a bar having drinks, oh, I have an idea. Those companies now that are the you know, more than decacorns. So who is the ideal customer? We have, Raw and Real Entrepreneurs are amazing at referring their friends to the companies they hear about. So who is your ideal customer for Ignition?

Karthik Suresh 26:20
Yeah, the ideal customer for ignition is either a product marketer or a product ops person who's responsible for doing product launches in your company. So that's the person that we're going after.

Susan Sly 26:32
And what size of company?

Karthik Suresh 26:34
So we are, I think we are, we really start adding value when you're north of 100 plus employees, because then that's when there's real pain and stakeholder management. And, you know, putting together a launch, making sure everyone is like walking the same walk. So I think north of 100 plus is where we you know, add real value.

Susan Sly 26:55
So in other words, it's not going to be a spreadsheet with 100 tabs with tabs that reference.

Karthik Suresh 27:03
Exactly. And also, like when you do a launch, you just don't go party after launching. Every launch success, you actually have accountability, where they can see all the past launches you have done and see like what went well, what went wrong, and you can actually have a structured process around that.

Susan Sly 27:17
And that is so huge, because something you said earlier, the data around unicorn companies and founders having there's a, there are myths, right, that founders like if you have a tech company, then it should be the co founders should both be technical. And all the evidence actually shows that someone with say, industry experience but it's not technical has just as likelihood of being successful as someone who's you know, super technical. And you've got to have that balance. Someone who can go you know, create the product and build the product team and be the CXO or CTO, someone might call them, and that person who can actually sell. And that's where the balance is. So let me ask you a final question. Well, I have like five, but we'll have to save that for part two. Hello, everyone. So someone listening, they're like, this guy is amazing. Working, I have friends who their client is Facebook, and I know the hours that they put in serving Facebook. So I was laughing really hard. And you know, kudos to what Meta has done like honestly, like, hey, yeah, but my question for you is, here you are, you go from startup to big tech to start up. And you mentioned, you know, meditation, you mentioned all sorts of things. So can you give entrepreneurs, and this is a conversation around mental and physical health, right? Can you give people advice, like what works for you in terms of keeping your head on straight and keeping that emotional and physical balance at the stage where you are now, especially because you have a ton of experience? But you're also reliving some of the things that you've already done, Right? So how do you how do you stay balanced?

Karthik Suresh 29:15
Yeah, that's right. The trauma never goes away. We do that again and again, till you get numb.

Susan Sly 29:23
I feel like we should be drinking wine and having this conversation. Like, oh my gosh, yes.

Karthik Suresh 29:30
Yeah. 100%. So for me, what has really worked personally is is, you know, meditation. I mean, this is something I discovered later. I think the big difference, the big issue there is like you're so anxious. And you're so anxious, you're stressful. So it has a lot to do with your mind than anything else. So then how do you calm your mind? And for me, the best way I've found is like, through meditation exercises to breathing exercises. There's a clear link between breathing and your mind. For example, if you're agitated, you're anxious, you can see you're not, your breathing in short cycles, or your irregular breathing cycles. So the reverse is also true. Which means if you can actually regulate your breathing, and you know, and then actually meditate, the mind actually becomes calmer. So the reverse, basically reverse engineering, the mental health process. So that's what I've found, which has been extremely beneficial for me, like, even before any, you know, tense meetings, before I would be like, Okay, let me get a glass of wine and then go. Like, right now I'm like, Okay, let me do a five minute meditation, and then get my points and get my focus. And then let me take this call or the presentation, whatever I'm doing, and that has, that has made a big difference. So there are highly recommended different forms of meditation. So there's, you know, whatever works for you. And it's also about not doing like one hour meditation one time, one time a week, it's more like doing a 10 minute meditation every day. It's almost a quick, frequency matters more than, so that's what's been working for me.

Susan Sly 31:09
That's it. I love that you share that. I meditate myself so every morning I do a longer when I meditate and pray. And I used to think when I was younger, like what's your perfect day and I had this all the stuff with my perfect day. Now I'm like. So, and that habit. And then throughout the day, breathing or even a moving meditation. One of the things I love to do is just go for a walk. If I have an evening meeting, and there's a break, and the kids are doing their homework and stuff, it's like, okay, I'm just going for a 30 minute walk and just put on some music and just chill out. And that flexibility because I can't remember who said this, but you know, obviously flexible mind, flexible body. And I think the greatest trade as a founder is to be able to pivot when you need to pivot and have that flexibility because I've met founders who have this rigidity, and when things aren't going their way they implode.

Karthik Suresh 32:15
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I love the saying The flexible mind, flexible body. That's so true. It's because yeah, it's all about, I mean, that's the way you persevere. That's the way you play the long game is being able to develop that sense of flexibility. So you're spot on.

Susan Sly 32:33
Karthik, thank you so much for being here. When I talk to you, it's like, I've meditated and had a glass of wine.

Karthik Suresh 32:43
I'm so glad to hear.

Susan Sly 32:48
Thank you. So for everyone who is listening, wherever you are around the world. If this episode has helped you, please, we would love a five star review. So do that, share it on social, definitely tag us, you can always go to Susansly.com, send a message to info whatever you're taking away. And if you know of a company that has 100 plus employees, is doing product launches, check out Ignition, and it's always great to support everyone in this community. So Karthik, thanks again so much for being here.

Karthik Suresh 33:20
Yeah, thank you so much for having me as well. Thank you.

Susan Sly 33:23
Well, all right, everyone. Thank you so much for joining. This has been another episode of Raw and Real Entrepreneurship. And I just say, God bless, go rock your day. And I will see you in the next episode.

Susan Sly 33:38
Hey, this is Susan and thanks so much for listening to this episode on Raw and Real Entrepreneurship. If this episode or any episode has been helpful to you, you've gotten at least one solid tip from myself or my guests, I would love it if you would leave a five star review where ever you listen to podcast. After you leave your review, go ahead and email reviews@Susansly.com. Let us know where you left a review. And if I read your review on the air, you could get a $50 amazon gift card and we would so appreciate it because reviews do help boost the show and get this message all over the world. If you're interested in any of the resources we discussed on the show, go to Susansly.com. That's where all the show notes live. And with that, go out there rock your day, God bless and I will see you in the next episode.

Susan Sly 34:29
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