307. Interview with Ken Babcock, Co-Founder and CEO of Tango: This Founder Dropped Out Of Harvard Business School, and Now Runs A Company with 300,000 Users

Susan Sly 00:02
This is Raw and Real Entrepreneurship, the show that brings the no nonsense truth of what is required to start, grow and scale your business. I am your host Susan Sly.

Susan Sly 00:16
Well, what is up Raw and Real entrepreneurs wherever you are in the world, I hope you're having an amazing, amazing day. And to those of you who have left five star reviews like Hello, thank you! The reviews are pouring in. And don't forget, if you give a five star review, and you email it to, with the link, reviews@Susansly.com and I read it on the air I will give you a $50 amazon gift card and you know that's like gold right there. Anyway, my guest today is the co founder and CEO of Tango which takes the pain out of the documenting process by automatically generating How to Guides while you work. He and along with his co founders Brian Schultz and Dan Giovacchini, have to use the Italian pronunciation, dropped out of Harvard Business School during the pandemic to start the company and I'm sure some parents were not happy about that. Since then, the company has grown to nearly 300,000 users and 35 Full Time Team members which is its own aspect of Raw and Real Entrepreneurship right there. And Tango has been recognized as a finalist for Product Line's Product of the Year, Google's 12 favorite Chrome extensions of 2022, and Fast Company's Next Big Things in Tech for 2022. Tango has raised 19.7 in venture capital funding today and we're gonna talk about what it's like to raise money in this current climate. And prior to HBS, he spent most of his career in the Bay Area at Uber where he had roles in launch operations, data science and product strategy from 2014 to 2018. He holds a bachelor's degree from Cornell University where I almost went but, to my dad's disappointment, I didn't, where he met his amazing wife Colleen. Together they live in Chicago with their Havanese poodle mix Balboa and one year old son, Quinn. He is an avid skier like me, Bill Simmons listener like me, chicken enthusiast, not so much but we both do love football. My guest today is the one and only Ken Babcock. Ken, thank you for being on Raw and Real Entrepreneurship.

Ken Babcock 02:22
Thanks for having me. That was a, that was a mouthful. There's a lot going on there.

Susan Sly 02:26
Well, you're an impressive person, my friend. Chicken wing enthusiast, I need to know about that. I know it has nothing to do with entrepreneurship in this regard, since either of us own a chicken wing outlet. But what does that mean to be a chicken wing enthusiast?

Ken Babcock 02:43
I mean, it kind of just comes with growing up in Buffalo. I'm from Buffalo, New York, originally home of the chicken wing. And you know, so it's sort of a point of pride, to always say that chicken wings that you have outside of Buffalo just aren't as good. And it's always a point of pride to have, like, your specific place in Buffalo that no one's really heard of. And you know, it's like outside the city and they do something weird with their chicken wings. And so naturally, I have that too.

Susan Sly 03:13
So what is the, what is the restaurant you want to give a shout out for chicken wings? I grew up in the restaurant industry. I speak, I just spoke at the restaurant Leadership Conference on AI. And I always love promoting restaurants. So give a shout out to the best, in your most humble but accurate opinion, chicken wing establishment in Buffalo.

Ken Babcock 03:34
Yeah, well it's it's chicken wings and beef on weck which is also a buffalo delicacy. It's a recipe if I'm Kimmelweck Sandwich. Barbell Tavern in East Aurora. So they've blown up a little bit. They have a couple locations now but the one in East Aurora, the original one, nothing better in the summer, they open the windows, they get the patio going. You get chicken wings, you get beef on weck. It's a classic, you gotta go.

Susan Sly 04:03
Okay, so we will put these links in the show notes friends, just in case you're in Buffalo. And a shout out to my dad who listens to every show who is the OG Buffalo Bills fan. So come Ken, let me ask you, we will, we may talk about football. You never know what we're going to talk about on the show. But let's, I want to jump in with a hot topic right now, fundraising. Because this is a very interesting fundraising climate. So what are you hearing from other friends? You are, you know, in the grind, what have you observed right now this year in terms of raising money?

Ken Babcock 04:41
Yeah, I mean, we're, we're lucky in that we raised a little over a year ago. So we still have plenty of runway but you know, as a co founder and the CEO, I mean, you're always, you always have tabs on what's going on. You always have to be thinking about you know, your financial situation. You know, I think I tend to think about my role in three ways, hire and retain the best people, make sure we don't run out of money and, and tell the vision internally and externally. And so that piece around making sure you know, you don't run out of money means you got to be confident that you can fundraise. The stuff that I'm hearing now, I mean, it kind of comes back to the whole economics of venture investing, you know, there's LPs that invest in venture funds, venture funds that invest in companies and so all the money kind of flows through that. One of those LPs or pension funds, state of California, the state of Illinois, might also be you know, high net worth individuals. But, you know, what happens when the economy is more uncertainty is they start moving their assets around. And so what I've been hearing is that it's been harder for venture funds to raise money from those LPs, and that has all these downstream impacts on people like us, where there's no line of sight into a Future Fund, or if they need to, you know, make investments that give confidence to those existing LPs. There's just a lot more scrutiny going on the fundraising market. Now, to be clear, I think that's probably a good correction from 2020, 2021. But it does make it hard, because you really have to go out and tell the story. And so it, it's dicey. I mean, you see AI companies raising a ton of money at huge valuations. You know, you're not necessarily sure what that means. And then you have other companies that, you know, are sort of thinking about wind down how they give your team a soft landing. So it's kind of two ends of the spectrum.

Susan Sly 06:55
Yeah, it is. It is very interesting. And to your point, the transparency isn't a bad thing, you know, you think about Theranos, and you think about, you know, Sam Bankman-Fried and you think about the nefarious things that have gone on. And yet at the same point, I think that, just because, you know, I know, just because like we're an AI company, just because someone's in a AI company, there's a lot of appeal for, say, Gen AI. But there's newer forms of AI, like, say, what we do, computer vision at the edge that doesn't, you know, it doesn't have the same kind of cachet yet. And so it's also, the challenge is explaining what it is, especially to VCs who are like, Oh, okay, it's AI, but they don't really know about AI. There are different types of VCs who haven't invested in AI. It's, I've never seen a climate like this, honestly, it's fascinating. And then on top of it, the private investors, the angels, they're looking at, are we having a recession? If we are, is it a soft landing? What is the Fed gonna do? You know, it's, the list goes on and on. And it's this resilience, especially as CEOs. So let me ask you the, you know, I want to get into the origin story of Tango. So aside from being a hot wing enthusiast, and aside from all of that, you, you dropped out of business school to start this company. And what was that first point you realize that there was a pain that you knew you could solve, because there's a lot of people out there who have ideas, they observe pain points, and they complain about them, but they don't actually execute on starting a company to fix something. So when was that moment?

Ken Babcock 08:45
It really coincided with the pandemic. So, you know, we were, we're in the middle of school or for our first year, and, you know, March of 2020, it kind of shifted the entire experience for us. We were playing around with Tango, it wasn't called Tango at the time. But we kind of had this idea around, how do you digitize the shadowing experience, which is like a staple of so many onboarding processes across industries, companies, roles. And we had some early thoughts on what Tango could be, you know, this sort of automatic documentation solution, asynchronous. And so we're doing a lot of customer discovery, you know, and the conversations are generally positive, which is, you know, you always gotta take that with a grain of salt when you're first starting a company because most people don't want to give you critical feedback. And so the conversations would wrap with Oh, I'd love to try it like, good on you guys for starting something like yeah, like happy to support and then with the pandemic, you know, what we saw is with a lot of these customers, they were going remote. Their teams were going distributed. They were having to do layoffs, like knowledge was like fleeing their organization. So the, just the tenor of those conversations went from, I'm happy to be helpful to, can you guys build this yesterday? And so, you know, for a lot of entrepreneurs, it is kind of like, do I jump in the deep end? I don't know, I have, I don't have enough signal. For us, it was kind of overwhelming where we were all in school, that experience had changed for the worse. And we had very real customers at real companies saying, Go build that thing that you said you want to build. And that, that for us was kind of, I think the point where we're just trying to figure out okay, how, how do we drop out of business school? How do we build this thing? And that was, that was the beginning.

Susan Sly 10:45
So I love what you said about, firstly, the knowledge was fleeing their organizations. And so there's this, you know, we have, we have many people around the world who listen to the show, who are looking for that signal, that it is time to start something. So there's the you go, Oh, yeah, okay, this is a problem. And we've already ideated on a potential way to solve it. And so those are the first few steps. And then the next thing is, how do we execute on it? So did you, how did you get the funding to start and create the first beta?

Ken Babcock 11:23
Yeah, so we, we raised a seed round in the fall of 2020. So we finalized our deferral from HBS in August. And then we went out in September, basically a slide deck. I mean, we, you know, we had, we had some interns who were, you know, unpaid at the time, but just wanted to work on an idea. One of those interns is actually still still an employee of tango, which is awesome. She's seen it from from the get go. But we went out with a slide deck, mostly, and said, Here's what we think we can do. Here's some mock ups. Here's some quotes from customers, here's some people to talk to, but you know, we're, we're committed to doing it. And in that environment, that was that was enough. And, you know, we're lucky to have some great investors come on board at that point. But it did feel like it like, wow, I'm really selling here, you know, I've got a deck, I've got an idea. I've got a vision. But if all those things are right, so that's, that's the race. So in total, we actually raised we did a price round, raised about two and a half there, and then later did a safe for an additional, additional 3 million. So it wasn't all in that fall 2020. It was sort of over time, but it was like as we were getting more validation of the idea.

Susan Sly 12:55
Did you have any investors turn you down in that seed round?

Ken Babcock 13:01
Yeah, what's the ratio, like 30 to 1?

Susan Sly 13:04
Tell that because there are a lot of people who are listening, and they, you know, they hear these stories, Ken, and they haven't had the experience yet. So there's, in traditional sales, and you know this just as well as anyone, you've got to know your own numbers. And when I look at any of my experience in selling and closing deals, I always start to quantify it. So in the old days, I keep an Excel spreadsheet. So how many conversations did it take in order for me to get my first sale? Right? And so in the same thing with raising money, so I'm always curious about like, what would you estimate that percentage was like, how many pitches did you do versus how many actually wrote checks? And what was the smallest cheque size and the biggest cheque size?

Ken Babcock 13:50
Yep. So the way I think about it, so think about a typical seed round process, you have an intro meeting, maybe you have a meeting with another partner, then you go to a partner meeting. And that's typically three steps. There might be some diligence in between, hey, can you intermediate, some customers mere advisors, but those three steps and so when you look at those three steps, you should expect probably 50% attrition between all of them, where people are gonna say, I'm good. Thanks that. And so, when you work backwards from that, I mean, we had four institutional investors participate. So you did, obviously a lead, and you have other people that are going to commit. So we had four institutions. So if you do the math back from that three step process, or so you get to eight partner meetings, the 16 second rounds, and you get to, you know, maybe 32 intro calls. And it's actually probably more than that, honestly. So you know, if I were to go back I bet we did 45 to 50 calls to get those four checks, which you know, they range from probably 350,000, from a participant to, you know, a million dollars from the lead. So that's another dynamic in and of itself, right? Like people will say, Oh, yeah, Iim in, I'm not gonna lead, I'm not gonna set terms find that lead. And that complicates things too, because then you're, then you're walking around, you're like, do I have an asset in my back pocket? Like I have someone who's committed, I have someone who's interested, but they're not willing to step up and lead, like, what signal does that give to future pitches? And so we tried to do some of that, but it's, it's such a game.

Susan Sly 15:43
It is. How long did it take you that first round?

Ken Babcock 15:47
Yep. So, you know, I would say, probably, we kept it tight. I mean, we were, we were good about that. And that's all sort of, you have to, you have to keep it tight yourself, because otherwise firms will want to drag on. So we created an artificial deadline, we basically said, hey, you know, we're gonna do this round, or we're gonna go back to school. And so like, here's the timeline. If we do the round, we're not going back in like, sign affidavits, or whatever you need. But we said, this is our, this is our drop dead date, this is when we need to get the round done. And so all in all, that was four weeks. So that is, that is one of the big takeaways, one of the big advice I give to founders is like, always create a false sense of urgency, because investors are operating on incomplete data, they always are, at some point, you need them to make the leap, and make that judgment based on incomplete data. And if you just keep the window open, they're gonna want to see you again, and again and again. And at certain point, like that's it, that's a huge time suck for you.

Susan Sly 16:55
Yeah, no, that's, that's great advice, Ken. And the, you know, I love how you went through the numbers, because you're talking 45 to 50, calls in a four week timeframe. And you know, that, you know, you have an idea, you know, there's customer demands, but you're very earlier, zero revenue for this first round. So it's like, zero. So you're raising money, where they're like, show me your financials, and there are none. So, yeah, and I'm sure you know, I'm sure there were a lot of people who had a lot of questions, but they weren't the appropriate questions to ask, especially in the early stage that you were in. during that time, did you or your partner's ever, you know, have a wall kicking moment or something you maybe thought an investor was going to come in And they decided the last minute not to come in? Like, what was the most stressful thing that happened in those four weeks?

Ken Babcock 17:53
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we, we had, so coming back to the last conversation, we had an investor who said, yeah, we'd be willing to lead. And then they said, Now we're going to participate. Okay, well, at what amount? Because at some point, it's this big puzzle of like, how much solution do you want to take? Like, you don't know what those terms are because the lead hasn't come in yet? And then they go, Oh, well, you know, but we still want to do this amount of money. It's like, well, we can't, we can't do that. Like the math just doesn't work. We don't want to take 35% dilution on our, on our seed round. And so you know, it's this challenging thing where you're like, you feel like you're, you're begging seed, like you said, you don't really have a ton of ground to stand on. You have someone who's committed, but they're totally throwing off the economics, they're totally changing it in their favor. And you have to be, you know, it's still your company, like, you still have to be protective. And I mentioned this to you, actually, Susan, right before we jumped on this call. But, you know, it was always a helpful reminder to me to just reference this quote, of like, capital as a commodity, companies are rare. Just remember, like, in every round, there, yeah, there's the vanity metric of how much did you raise, Who did you raise it from? But you're selling part of your company, You know, you're giving that up. You're giving that to someone, you're obviously getting something in exchange, and without it, you don't have a company. But you know, just keep that in mind. Like, don't chase the big numbers, because it has. it has an impact.

Susan Sly 19:32
Yeah, I love that capitalism. Commodity companies are rare. We're talking about that before we started the show. And that, you know, that it's that abundant mindset. And I've had founders that, you know, one of the founders, my friend Pratik, he was like, Yeah, we were rejected by 75 investors. And then I had another founder,Ken, and she came on the show and she was already at revenue with her idea. No one was funding her and the same VCs that didn't fund her funded a guy who had a slide deck who hadn't even proved out the concept that it was her exact same concept, and he was bringing in money like crazy. And the some of the best advice I've received is, it's not fair, So what? How are you going to play the game? So now I told you, I bring in football, so I'm gonna give you the football reference. This is great advice I received about raising money. Every day when you're in your raise is like the Superbowl. And so I'm a massive, long, longtime New England Patriots fan. And so we can agree not to be friends, but I'll just use this example. So we're in the Super Bowl, and you think you're gonna have like, everyone's gonna be healthy that day. And you know, you're gonna have like, back in the OG like, you know, Gronk is gonna be non concast. And you're gonna have Amendola and Brady is going to be in prime shape, and you're going to have, everyone is going to be there, it's going to be awesome. And then it's game day. And someone has a concussion from practice, and someone hurt their ankle and can't throw properly. You know, the list goes on and on. And you don't give up you go, Okay, what, what is the team that we have to put on the field today, and you play that team. And all the critics are just in the stands, their fans, you can't hear them, the noise is so loud, and you put your freakin head down, and you play the game to win. And so that has been the best advice I've received about raising money because every day, I'll just go, okay, who's in the game today? And who buy, who's in the game? It's not just the players on my team that are, you know, healthy fit, the right mindset, but who, whether it's strategic, whether it's VC, who's in play, who are we under due diligence with? What are the conversations we're having? And what is the game we're playing today? And are we going to move that feel the ball down the field to get the touchdown? And then do we make you know, do you have to do a smaller round you go for the field goal because you didn't get the touchdown? So there I told you I bring football in.

Ken Babcock 22:06
I love it. That's great. You know, that actually reminds me of one of the,one of the best books I've read on leadership is it's the story of Bill Walsh. And the title of the book is The Score Takes Care of Itself. And there's a I think in the foreword, which is written by his son, he references you know, Bill Parcells calls Bill Walsh and says like, yeah, like, you know, we're, we have literally playing in the Super Bowl. But, you know, we have these guys or her I mean, it's a perfect analogy to what you're saying. And Bill Walsh just says nobody cares. And so sort of a spin on what you're saying. Nobody cares. Like, you just, you have to play your own game, you have to figure it out. And in some ways, that's like very liberating, right? Because it's like, well, no one's gonna, no one's gonna take inventory of the excuses. So don't make them just do the thing.

Susan Sly 23:05
Yeah. And when you put the time limit on it, it's the, it's no different than the game. So the game has a start, it has a finish, it has four quarters, unless you're tied, and then you may, you know, go into overtime. But at the end of the day, that I think for me, just having been a former athlete, when that analogy was given to me by a mentor, I got so energized. Like I always say raising money is fun, because it's the mindset, right? And it's just like, Okay, how are we going to play today? I can only control how I show up. And I know you're the very same type of person. I can control that as a CEO. I can't control how anyone else shows up. I can't control who's in the game that day, who's not, all I can control is me and work with what I've got. I want to ask you, you know, 90% of startups fail. The number one reason is cashflow. You're talked about that, you are an excellent steward of your company. But how did you get the first paying customers? Because that's the question like, when people writing questions, Susan, How did they get the first paying customers? I've got the idea. I've got some funding, but now I'm scrambling to get customers. How do you guys do that?

Ken Babcock 24:14
I think it all comes down to what your go to market motion is and so for us, I don't want to say it was, it was easy, because we made a conscious decision around our go to market motion. What I mean by that is, you know, our product is bottoms up adopted. So we you know, out the gate, I mean, we have a selling motion now, but out the gate, we didn't have a sales team. We didn't have a form on our website. We didn't have, you know, an opportunity for enterprise customers. We just didn't have it. And then the reason for that is, if you think back to what we're building, you know, creating documentation in seconds, while people are working in the context of their tools and processes. They don't have to go off and do it on their own. You know, you have to think about who that pain is felt by. And so for us, throughout our customer discovery, we always realized that it was, it was these like frontline employees, those are the people that were like, really feeling the pain. And when we talked to like their bosses or their boss's boss, who would, in theory be the buyer for a sales lead team, they didn't talk in the same way. They were like, oh, yeah, sounds good. You know, it's like, like, oh, you should brush your teeth twice a day? Oh, Yep, absolutely. Or, you know, it just it's good hygiene, right. That's how they felt about it. Whereas when we talked to these frontline workers, they were like, Oh, my God, I spend hours creating these meticulous how to guides that nobody reads in the format and gets all thrown off. I mean, it was like, we had to cut the calls off. And so for us, being bottoms up meant people could go to our website, they could navigate to our Chrome extension, they could download it on their own, there'd be no touch point with anyone on the Tango team. And so for us, getting those first paying customers was about offering a compelling paid experience, we'd always have a free experience. But let's offer a compelling paid experience. And what we recognized with that was that, you know, people just wanted more customization or branding of their workflows of their tutorials. And so we gave that until we turned it on, probably two months after we launched the product and, you know, had 100 or so subscriptions in the first day, and those were the first dollars in the door, so that engine of product led growth of low touch, sort of selling has worked wonders for us.

Susan Sly 26:42
That's fantastic. And I, you know, you get that end user. And my first thought when you were talking about those customers, and that those conversations are like a therapist, right? Because it happens, especially in the startup world, and I always teach my team, like, sometimes we're gonna build the airplane while we're flying it. And for the team members that have come from big corporations, it scares them, like, we have employees who have come from Google and Amazon and CVS health and all these, you know, Chase and all these different places. And, and they're like, when you first said that, Susan, it scared me. And I said, but they're like, now I get it. And some of that is to your point, it's that process driven documentation that's going to be customer facing, and it's like, you know, translating it from what do we have to understand internally, but what does the customer have to understand and that doesn't always translate and so that pain, so you had like both white collar on and your therapy hat, which was awesome. My you know, there's so many thing, Ken, I could ask you, but I think you know, what's on my heart to really ask is there's, I'll preface this by saying you came from Uber. And I, in the hundreds of founders I've interviewed, I've interviewed a lot lately, who started their companies during the pandemic. And you have a one year old, sweet son. So during that time, while you're starting the company, you also find out that Colleen is pregnant, right? So you're building a company, you've left HBS, you're raising money, you're building a company, and you know, now you're having a family. I have a personal belief that those of us who founded companies during the pandemic or started to get the first customers during the pandemic are going to be the next big unicorns because of the resilience. So what did the pandemic do for you in terms of resilience as a founder?

Ken Babcock 28:42
Yeah, I mean it, you know, I think it was a lot of, and this is true of everybody, I don't want to make this so unique to me. But the things that I had signed up for Harvard Business School, being, you know, the primary one had just changed overnight. And it went from being this incredible in person experience with all of these relationships that I was building and experiences that I wouldn't have otherwise. And then it was like, Nope, you're not going to have those. Those are gone. We'll give you a diluted experience. Oh, by the way, it will charge you the same amount. And so in a lot of ways, it was, it was kind of like a this isn't it? You know, I always envisioned that this was it, but now it's not it anymore. And so, how do I go find something that will be you know, I mean, just taking a step back and thinking about how you spend your time and and how you move through your career. And so, yeah, I definitely, I mean, I definitely think there's a certain level of, of resilience that was built. I mean, also building a team entirely remotely. We're still remote, still distributed, 40 People in 16 states. And there's pros to it. Right? We have great access to talent, we hire people that independent of where they live, which, which has been amazing for us. But like building that culture is hard. Like how do you form bonds between people when you're not in the same place? You don't have that opportunity to go out for lunch or go for coffee. And so we've had to be very diligent about that. So there's just a lot of things that have been thrown our way, which is true for many founders where we've had to kind of go the extra mile to figure it out. And so that, you know, that resilience is part of the foundation of Tango, for sure.

Susan Sly 30:36
Man, it's beautiful, really contemplating that the one of my favorite sayings is leadership is forged in the flame of challenge. And we were in offices, but also, you know, had remote employees. And then the pandemic happened, and we still maintain an office then we added an office during the pandemic. So like, we're still, you know, growing the company. And you know, even looking back at there was a shortage of available tech workers. So maybe hiring people that didn't make sense at the time. And then, you know, all of those different things, I think, in my opinion, that's why those of us who are in this time right now, who came through that, we just think differently, and there's a resilience, as I mentioned, and the flexibility and understanding too that the talent that we want are making different demands because of the pandemic. And so your best people may have come from Google, or they may have come from wherever. But if they do not want to work in an office, and you really want them, right, so what are those trade offs? And it's, it's such a, it's such an interesting climate. Well, Ken, I want to thank you for being here and I put on so just a funny story, Friends, I have my daily list of things I will accomplish. But when something becomes really important, I put it on a post-it. I learned that from one of my mentors, Susan is 90. So I actually put Tango on a green post it. I don't think you can see it with my background, I don't think it's going to happen. Anyway. So I put it as an action item because even as a startup founder, and to your point, the documentation and what that looks like for various customers based on their needs, is something that we're going through right now. So I get it. And you know, so kudos to you, I really don't say this lightly. I really feel that what you have is definitely in that unicorn stratosphere. So I'm so excited for you. Are you going to go back to business school?

Ken Babcock 32:48
No, no, but I appreciate the kind words. Thank you for that. I mean, yeah, the problem and the problem that our customers experience is so pervasive. I don't see a reason why I would, why would go back.

Susan Sly 33:03
Yeah, I'm in a similar boat. But that's a conversation for another another day. I decided I was going to do my MBA at MIT. And I decided to defer applying. I've done you know, another education at MIT. But I just thought, you know, I'm in this hyper growth phase. And it's just not the time for me. And you know, when I feel like dipping my toe back in the MIT water, I just do. But, you know, right now, there's just too much to do. And it's like being a parent and growing a company and, and, and. Yesterday alone, we had my son's 21st birthday, and my daughter's grade 8th graduation. And like, the week before, we had a high school graduation, I mean, there's just so much going on. And do I want to be doing homework, or do I want to be actually out there, you know, building this company and making sure I have those moments? So I so appreciate you being on the show. And everyone, we'll put all of Ken's social in the show notes, we'll put of course, there's the full transcript, we'll put the link to Tango. And if you resonate with anything on the show, please give us a shout out on social. We'd love to tag, give a great review. If you're gonna give a rotten review just don't give one I hope your mother told you if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it. But if you're gonna give a great review, we'd love to have one. So thank you again, Ken, for being here.

Ken Babcock 34:27
Thanks for having me, Susan. This was fun.

Susan Sly 34:29
Oh, thank you. With that everyone, this has been another episode of Raw and Real Entrepreneurship. Go out there, God bless, and rock your day, and I will see you in the next episode.

Susan Sly 34:42
Hey, this is Susan and thanks so much for listening to this episode on Raw and Real Entrepreneurship. If this episode or any episode has been helpful to you, you've gotten at least one solid tip from myself or my guests, I would love it if you would leave a five star review where ever you listen to podcast. After you leave your review, go ahead and email reviews@Susansly.com, let us know where you left a review. And if I read your review on air, you could get a $50 amazon gift card and we would so appreciate it because reviews do help boost the show and get this message all over the world. If you're interested in any of the resources we discussed on the show, go to Susansly.com. That's where all the show notes live. And with that, go out there, rock your day, God bless. I will see you in the next episode.

Susan Sly 35:33
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