313. Interview with Dr. Amy Beckley, Founder of Proov: How 7 Heartbreaking Miscarriages Lead To Startup Success

Susan Sly 00:02
This is Raw and Real Entrepreneurship, the show that brings the no nonsense truth of what is required to start, grow and scale your business. I am your host Susan Sly.

Susan Sly 00:16
Welch, what is up Raw and Real entrepreneurs wherever you are in the world, I hope you're having an amazing day. And I want to ask you a question Do you or someone you know have the experience of suffering a miscarriage, because it's devastating. I know that I had a second trimester miscarriage years ago. And it up until recently, it wasn't something that anyone was talking about. And the founder I'm going to interview today, she endured that herself. She suffered seven miscarriages, and two rounds of IVF. And the second of which, gratefully she had a son as a result, but she understood the pain emotionally, physically, of infertility. And she is the inventor of the first and only FDA cleared test to confirm ovulation at home in is changing lives. I went and read customer testimonials. And I think of all the founders I've interviewed, it must be such a blessing to wake up and see all of those gratitude messages each and every day. And so when this founder decided she wanted to have another child without going through IVF, she used her background in hormone signaling to uncover a problem with ovulation, which caused a progesterone deficiency. And it's also called luteal phase defect. And so we're gonna get a little technical today but I know this is going to be a must share, must listen, to must take notes. So if you're driving, keep listening, but go home and then play it again and take notes. So with the help of a very inexpensive progesterone supplement, this founder and her husband were blessed with their daughter and she invented the original PDG test in her basement to help women identify problems with ovulation at home and started selling them in plastic bags on Amazon with a $50 logo from Upwork. So my guest today is a mom, is a badass, is the one and only Dr. Amy Beckley, PhD and the founder of Proov. Amy, girl, what a journey.

Dr. Amy Beckley 02:33
Yeah.

Susan Sly 02:35
I, I want to ask you, you know, there there's a lot of discussion about infertility. And finally, there are people like Jennifer Aniston is talking about her journey with IVF. There are people, celebrities now, like Chrissy Tegan, who came out openly and discussed miscarriage. Why do you think suddenly, women and men for that matter are so open now about talking about it?

Dr. Amy Beckley 03:02
You know, I don't really think they're open now. They open up after they've been through it. And that is the big realization that everybody is now having. It's like, oh, I went through this. And then now they kind of open up. And it's because when you're in it, when you're a woman, you know, people call it what the biological clock, it's like taking it's like you almost one day, wake up, you're like, oh, it's time to have a baby. You know, like I'm married, I found that partner that I want. I got that good job. Let's, you know, try to build this family. And then it's so frustrating. And it's so demeaning as a woman to not do something so simple. I'm going to air quote so simple.

Dr. Amy Beckley 03:49
That it's, you feel like less of a woman, you feel ashamed. You feel like you don't want to share this with anybody. And that's why people don't talk about it. Because it's just, it's so difficult to go through that. And you see, you know, your neighbor who just just happens to you know, pop them out one after another and you're like, What is going on? Like, why can't I even have one or why do I keep having miscarriages?

Dr. Amy Beckley 04:18
And then, then after the trauma is over, then they come out, you know, like Jennifer Aniston. She went through years and years and years of not talking about it at all. Now she's past it and she says, Okay, I'm at peace. This is my journey. And she kind of opens up in the past.

Dr. Amy Beckley 04:37
It's almost like a backward looking statement because it is so traumatizing to go through this as a woman. Because you feel like that's my duty as a woman, as a wife, as a daughter, to have children. And it hurts my heart every single time. You know, my mom says hey, when am I going to be

Dr. Amy Beckley 05:00
grandma, when am I going to you're going to give me grandkids? And you're like in the middle of miscarriage, right? And you don't want to share that. But then if you did, it would be better because your mom would be there by your side, and she would understand what you're going through. Right. But it's just so hard for us women to do that. We just

Dr. Amy Beckley 05:23
bottle it up, we keep it to ourselves. So I do appreciate that it is becoming more public. But it's very backwards facing public.

Susan Sly 05:36
Yeah. Because the, to your point, when someone makes that decision, Yes, I'm ready to have the baby. And this is what I want. I think that it's it's not always at the forefront of one's mind. And I know when I had my miscarriage, and I probably, I don't think I've ever, almost 320 shows ever talked about it. But I was in week, I think 13, and I was running on the treadmill, and I started bleeding. And I felt, Amy, like such a failure. And I was beating myself up saying, you know, what am I doing? You know, I shouldn't have been running, but I was an athlete. And I remember there's a funny cultural reference, but the Sex and the City movie where Charlotte finally gets pregnant. Finally, finally, they had already adopted then she gets pregnant, and she doesn't want to run because she's terrified. And I related to that so much, because when I did get pregnant the next time, I was so cautious, and I didn't want to tell anyone I was pregnant, because I felt like I had failed the first time. And that sense of you know, like you said, it's something that we should just be so natural. But I love that a lot of things start in celebrity. So I love that there's this honesty about it. For you going through it, one of the things that we always talked about on the show is, identified a problem, and then I created a company to solve that problem. That's not what other women are thinking when they go through miscarriage. So what was the light switch that flipped for you that went, I'm gonna do something about it. I'm not just going to help myself, I'm going to go out there, and I'm going to create a product that helps so many women.

Dr. Amy Beckley 07:33
Yeah, I mean, it started when I was in it. Like it was so devastating, because you go to a doctor, you go to a health care provider, and you'd say, Okay, I just had this loss. Can you help me? And to be told, it's common, it just happens. Go home and try again. Oh, it's nothing you did. And it's like, again, you feel like you did something wrong. You know, I thought I drink too much tonic water. Because there's, I guess there's a chemical and tonic water that if you drink too much of it, right? And it's like, women, they just they beat themselves up, and they think it's something they did. And plus, it's so traumatic, that they do not want it to happen again. And so it's like, if this happened to me, I have to analyze everything I did. And I have to not do the things that could have caused it. So that next time, I don't have a loss because my heart cannot handle it. Right. And so when you go to the healthcare provider, and they basically tell you, Oh, statistically speaking, you'll be fine next time or you know, just pregnancies end in loss, it's no big deal. And me being a scientist and having access to all this medical, you know, scientific research. Yes, one out of four pregnancies will end in miscarriage. But the part they don't tell you is 30% of those losses are preventable. And it's you had some kind of infection that caused poor implantation or your body to kind of reject that fetus. You're not taking a prenatal vitamin, and maybe you have a vitamin deficiency or not metabolizing folate the correct way. You'd have a hormone imbalance. So you don't have enough hormones to support that pregnancy. But they don't talk about that. They just say, Oh, well, you know, it's just, it's genetic and sperm meets egg. There's really nothing you can do. Until you have three losses in a row. Then they're like, oh, okay, maybe we'll do some testing. And I'm like, Okay, well, that's messed up. And then, but, you know, I would just go through it. I just, I just refused to believe that this was my ending, that I wasn't going to be a mom, I just I flat out refused it. And I said, No, I'm gonna figure this out. I'm gonna, I'm going to get to my goal. I'm going to have these children and there's no way anybody's going to stop me. And so when I had my my two kids, I call it coming out of the closet, and I went on social media, and I was like, This is me, I'm one and eight I dealt with infertility. I had seven miscarriages, here's my story. You know, and like, again, that like, you know, reverse facing statement where it's like, okay, I'm past it, I'm done with this, emotionally healing. And now I'm going to educate people that will happen. The number of friends and family that came into my inbox and was like, Amy, I'm struggling, what did you do? What did you talk to your doctor about? How do I get past. Because they were getting pushed off to they were getting told you haven't had enough losses, or, you know, you haven't been trying long enough, or we did everything we could know how to do. We don't know what's wrong with you, let's do this really expensive procedure. And so it's like, I can't afford that. Amy, what did you do? What can I talk to him about? What can I What can I say? And so I taught them how to be their own advocate, and to ask better questions, and how to ask those questions to get the right care. And that's where, you know, I had helped, you know, a couple family members, multiple friends, finally get pregnant. And then I had a friend call me and she's like, Amy, you got some magic secret sauce that you need to tell the world. And so I felt like it was a tribute to those babies that I lost. Like it was their purpose that they had brought me to this this discovery that I made, that there's not a good diagnostic for one of the most common causes of infertility and miscarriage, and there was no good diagnostic for it. And so it's just, it's just like, nobody knows what's happening. You go through, you know, really expensive IVF to kind of fix it or curate, that it was kind of my duty to just be that person that educated and empowered, you know, women, couples to go, you know, build their families.

Susan Sly 11:57
And how many many people names their daughter, the middle name, Amy.

Dr. Amy Beckley 12:07
So that, I don't know. My son's name is Cash. And we tease him that we named him cash because he took all of our cash, because he was multiple rounds of IVF to conceive Him. But when I developed Proov, and we started selling the product, one of my really good friends from high school was one of the very first people to buy the product. And she conceived using it. And so she named her son Cash.

Susan Sly 12:37
Ah, so there you have it. There's a, there's this legacy piece about it. I love it. Going in this, I want people to understand a timeline, right? Because right now, and you and I were talking before we went into the show, there was media that came out this morning, it just depends when someone's listening to this. When it came out, you know, where all the startup founders people are giving up in startups. 2023, 1500 startups folded. You know, I just did a show with someone who's on his third startup, he's already had two successful exits, he's calling 2023 the year of 'no' in terms of funding. And yet I know there are people listening to this saying, there's a problem I want to solve, I have a passion for it. I know I have the solution to it. But how do I find the courage to take that passion to solve a problem to taking it to a beta and then taking it to a company? So how did you do that? Like, walk us through the story. Everyone's hitting you up in your DMS, like help me, help me, help me. You're an evangelist of fertility, the fertility evangelist, there you go. And so you're, you're doing all this. How did. how did you create that beta product? Because in the healthcare space, especially anything that's ingested, and I came from a couple of decades working in that space, so I know this isn't easy. We don't just, you and I don't cook something up in the kitchen and then suddenly, it's FDA approved. Like how did you get that beta product and how did you go through that process to the point where you did get the FDA approval?

Dr. Amy Beckley 14:15
Yeah, I mean it was just one of those things where it was like, I have to try, I have to do this. It wasn't about money or fame, or can I get VC funding? And can I be on the cover of Fortune magazine or any of this? I didn't know a single investor, I could care less. It was all about, did I have the knowledge to help people? Because I knew how emotionally devastating it was and how much of a lack of resources there were. And so it was a simple thing. I'm gonna invent this product. I'm going to show it to the world. And if it's a good product and they want to use it, they will buy it and then I will keep making it. And we'll just, I'll make it, they'll buy it, then I'll make more and then they'll buy it. And I'll make more. And that was it. And it was just like, I'm here to provide a service and to help people get pregnant. And this is my idea. If it's a bad idea, they won't buy it. And then I'll go about my merry way and say, at least I tried, right? But the opposite happened. They, they loved it, kept buying it, and then we just kind of like, grew and grew and got more and more traction. You know, how did we create a medical device? Well, I literally went to fda.gov and read the rules. That's literally-

Susan Sly 14:21
I love it.

Dr. Amy Beckley 15:24
I, you know, it was my myself and that friend that had called me on the phone. She was a patent attorney, and she had done like you know, clinical studies, she works at a university. And we got on planes, we met somewhere, we were in like a lobby of a hotel of like, Hampton Inn or something. And we literally had our laptops open, and we were reading fda.gov. We're like, alright, how do we do this? What is it, right? And as we just, you know, we were scientists, and we knew that this was a good idea. And we just wanted to make sure there's regulatory pathway. And there, you know, happened to be and we just wrote down, okay, this is what we needed to do. This is who we need to contact, this guy will make it for us, how much money do we need. And then we launched a crowdfunding campaign. And we said, we need $50,000, because that's how much is gonna cost to make this initial batch that we'll sell. And if we sell, we'll have enough money to make the next one. It's kind of that circle. And so we did. We launched a Indiegogo crowdfunding campaign, and this was back in 2016, when it wasn't as popular. I think there's so many of them now, that it's like, you know, throwing of a penny into a huge wishing well, you know, you just get lost. But yeah, we, you know, we just did a crowdfunding campaign, and, you know, had this idea. And we had a Facebook group of people that knew all about cycles and fertility, it got shared in that group. And we got 100%, funded in 48 hours.

Susan Sly 17:16
Wow. And that's incredible. And I hope everyone is getting this because one of my, one of my dear friends, and I invest in her company, full disclosure, it's Lori Harder. And I asked Lori on the show in terms of creating the company, she said, I Googled, I Googled. So you know, everything we want to find is out there if you search for it. And so because you're a scientist, and your friend is a patent attorney, so obviously very logical, very linear, so you can go and look at this and the fda.gov goes, Do this, do this, do this, do this. Looking back, let me ask you, because the, you know, when you talk about and I started to laugh, but the Amy, currently, if you could look back in time and give Amy when you know, back in when you're starting this process, any advice. Is there anything that you would have said, Hey, girl do this differently?

Dr. Amy Beckley 18:11
You know, I've had that question asked me a few times, and the answer is always no. Because I think it would have been different if I had done it differently, and I don't know, if I would have made it to the end. You know, like, if you woulda known back then, you know, to fix this, it's like, well, then I never would have had this journey, and I never would have had the passion to kind of get through it. Because being a CEO of a company is very, very hard. Let me just tell you, you have to be so passionate about what you do. And so it's like, I needed that life experience, I needed to suffer that, I needed to have that pain to really have the drive and the passion to keep going. And you know, we didn't do the traditional route, like the traditional route is, alright, you have an idea, you put it on a napkin, or you have a proof of concept, and then you walk it over and you tell your angel investors or whatever, and you're like, This is a billion dollar idea, and I'm gonna do that. Okay, we're gonna give you a couple $100,000. Okay, cool, and you build it from there. We didn't do that. We had paying, we had a product revenue generating before we raised our first dollar. And it almost. nobody knew what to do. Because it's like, wait, you have a product? Because then you get valued on your revenue, not on your idea. And so it's always like, Okay, well, if I didn't have a product, I didn't have revenue, could I have valued my company higher? And could I have raised more money and been in a different position than I am now? Because as soon as you raise or as soon as you have, like $1 in revenue, that's what they value on, is that dollar in revenue. So it's very, very hard to get money. Now, if you're a female founder it's harder, because not many female founders can just take an idea and get funding, you need to show market fit, track initial traction, and then you're stuck in this bucket where you're now valued on your traction, that you bootstrapped, you've no funding at all. So there are women out there doing amazing things making huge product, like all this stuff with no money at all. None. And then they try to get funding, and it's like, oh, you only have 200,000 in revenues, you're, you know, you can't raise money. We're like, you know, other people are getting these huge valuations on this idea. So would I've done differently, no.

Susan Sly 20:47
I love

Susan Sly 20:48
I love your transparency in that, because it's to your point, that there's a learning to it. But you are also very clear, because the statistic is less than 2% of female led pitches to VCs get funded. And in this season of No, and we're seeing even less funding go out. And women led companies are actually more profitable. That is a statistic that is just not me preaching on a soapbox. And so you know that it is harder. And because it's Raw and Real Entrepreneurship, we're gonna get really raw and real. Plus, you're raising kids, right? You're building a company, you're raising kids, there's, you know, there are different times in a company's growth when you do need a different level of resources in order to be able to scale. So as, walk us through, so the company is growing, you've got these initial users, you have the raving fans, you've you know, you've done the 50,000 in crowdfunding. How did you scale after that?

Dr. Amy Beckley 21:50
Yeah. So it was me and this other woman named Christina. She calls me and she says, I, you know, have this Sunday due to IVF. I'm having these health issues, I can't do both. I picked my family, which 100% Fair. And so I can't help you with this. And so now it was like solopreneur, trying to do this in my spare time, because I had a full time job. And I was a mom. And so I went to San Francisco to have the JP Morgan week. I, this is, you know, one of my, my sister in law's favorite stories, saved up all the money I possibly could. And I got a motel with the doors on the outside and had to walk past, you know, all the homeless people waiting for their meals to this really nice, you know, fancy place and gave my very first pitchy, very first. And there was four people in the audience, one of which turned out to be the first investor person to ever believe in us, got to go, she had an accelerator program for women, minority business owners, that was based in Cincinnati. So one of the couple of the funders were Kroger and p&g. And so they were trying to, you know, foster innovation and small companies. So I got to go out there and get mentored by these big execs and learn all this stuff. And then I came back and our state of Colorado had a grant program. I said, great, that's awesome. And so part of the grant program was hooking into the Angel Network. And this Angel Network, teaching us how to put together a term sheet, and how to raise money and how to do business. And then they go, Oh, we want to invest in you. Here's your term sheet, this is how you do it. And I was like, no, no, like this terms. Like, I might be alone, but I'm not done. I am not done. This term sheet literally gives you 51% control of my company. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And so there's a lot of stuff where women get taken advantage of. They, you know, it's like, you know, these investor groups think that it's a charity, or that women, you know, really need the, you know, the VC or the angel group, and they just, they write down these terms. And I didn't, I've never seen a term sheet ever in my life, but it didn't look right. And so I asked people and went to my network, and I was like, yeah, that's not good. So, you know, the best advice I can give, you know, for other founders in that position is never feel like you have to do something, right. If you're in a position where your next meal comes from this one person, this one situation is the worst position to be in because you're gonna get taken advantage of. You're gonna have to lower your standards. And so I've really tried to not be in that position. We've always raised money when we didn't need to, like obviously you need to raise money, but we weren't in a position where we were down to our last $2 in the bank account. And so we were able to get good partners, good people in our team. We're always, you know, growing and thriving. And that stuff matters. Because if you come into a situation and you're like, I don't have any money, you know, all these bad things. It makes you very vulnerable.

Susan Sly 25:25
Yeah, that's great advice. I wrote this down, never feel like you have to do something. Right. And then there's that surrender, right? There's the surrender of control. And it goes back to even with miscarriages. At some point, there's a surrender of control, right? I can't, if it's not the tonic water, what is it? Right? Is it you know, for me, it was running on the treadmill and coffee did that cause it, you know, and I spent so much time beating myself up in my head. And then like you said, whether it's raising money or growing the company, that there's a piece of it where you're out there giving your best self every single day, and you're learning and you're growing, and things might not be coming together the way you want them to, exactly the way you want them to do, and exactly how you want them to. But it's that surrender. And of course, you're very bright, you know, the piece about being taken advantageof, and there are different seasons. And I've had, you know, interviewed so many founders where, and men too, where they were given bad terms, because they were running out of runway or they were given bad terms because they were having arguments with their partners, and one partner wanted to say yes to term and they didn't want to say yes to term and you know, all these different things. It's not for everyone. Let me ask you this. So we talked about kids before we got on the show, and you know, people listening all over the world, like, what does her day look like? So what does your, you know as a founder, because as a founder, you're now, you've got a growing team. How many people are on your team now?

Dr. Amy Beckley 27:07
14

Susan Sly 27:08
14. So you've got 14 people, plus kids, right? And you know, plus life and everything else, you're also the face of the company. So what does your day look like?

Dr. Amy Beckley 27:20
Um, I wake up at 5:30, 6:00 during the summer. First thing I do is I open my computer and I, any of the urgent emails I like, get rid of them, I address them. Think about the problems. Then I go in my basement where I have a peloton, and that is my like, clear mind. You know, half hour, 45 minutes where I just, that's one of my favorite things to do. Do my peloton clears my mind. I come back upstairs, get my kids ready for school, I walk them to school, I block that out on my calendar that is like, this is the time for me. And everyone knows there's no meetings. And then I come back. And I get back into my computer and I start my day. And then at three o'clock, I block my calendar as well. I go pick up my kids. Now. They're 10, almost 10 and 13. They go walk home, they look at our schools like two blocks away. But it's important for me to stop and take that time, go get them, how's your day, how's it going, have that communication, and then they want to go back and they want to decompress. You know, they want to get on their computers and watch videos because they've been at school all day long, or they have gymnastics or football or some practice to go to. And so then I put another couple of hours in, in the afternoon. But I think it's important that you know, I'm so passionate about it, and I enjoy what I do. And that's how I treat all the employees on the team is that everybody here loves their job, they get to make their own schedule, they get to have blocks of time for their family. And it's like, you have to account for that. Otherwise, if you're very rigid, and you're like you have to be, you know, button chair from nine to five, that creates resentment. It's like what if I had to take my daughter to the dentist or what if I had this appointment or they have an event at their school and it's a parade and I want to go see them on Halloween, then they're gonna start resenting their job, which is not a good situation for anybody. And so whatever you're going to do, block it off in your calendar. So I know not to do meetings with you. You get your job done. If that's, you want to come in Friday night and do your work, Fine, great. If you're super efficient, you can get it all done in four hours and your job's done and you're you know, doing amazing, awesome, more power to you. But it really starts with making sure they enjoy what they're doing. And that's for me, that's for all my employees, because as soon as you transfer it to being work, and it's not a good environment, the work product goes down, the passion goes down. And it's not a good situation for anybody. And so forcing people to do things is not, that's not the game at any point. And so, you know, we talk to our employees, and they say, Oh, my, you know, school schedule changed and now I have to do this. Okay, great. Let's work around this, let's change this meeting, let's do that. Or it's like, you know, I thought, I want to do this job, but I really actually hate it. All right, what else are you good at? Like, let's try to figure this out. Because you get your best work done by employees who are passionate, and they appreciate you and the employers see them. And they see that they're doing a good job.

30:52
So

Susan Sly 30:53
Well, it seems to me too, that there's that, I love that you were sharing that, Amy, just in terms of managing the team, because there's a, we will never be able to get pregnant if we're super rigid, right? It's the same thing. What's the first thing the doctor says? You gotta relax, destress, right? And it sounds to me that the ethos of the mission of the company, which is so beautiful, and is how you, it's not just serving all of these women who want to get pregnant, it's how you're serving your team. I want to ask you, I'm sure you get a lot of gratitude messages. Is there one that sticks out for you?

Dr. Amy Beckley 31:32
I think the one that I'm most proud of, is helping my sister have my nephew. She's eight years younger than I am. And she saw me. She saw the journey, she saw everything I went through. And she got married, and she took her IUD out and she called me. She's like, Amy, I am ready to have a baby. I just want to be prepared. I don't know what's gonna happen, you know. And she was very, very proactive. So she's a teacher. She's a type that issues a planner. I love her for that. But she opened up to me before she even had any issues. And she was like, cool, this is amazing. So she got Proov and she tested. And you know, her levels were low and I told her. And she got pregnant, and she had having complications during her pregnancy. And I reminded her to talk to a doctor about certain medications, and she got them, stopped bleeding, all that fun stuff. And now I'm actually going to go see my nephew in a couple of days. We're going to be in Disneyland. And it's one of those things where it's like, that's my proudest moment is to know that I've saved her from dealing with with what I had dealt with. And it kind of goes back to the top of this where it's like, I want to help people before they go through this pain. But it's really hard because women have to go through the pain first. Right? And so how do you train people that you know what if you just take this extra step now, you might save yourself from all this stuff in the future. And I'm just so thankful that my sister did that. She trusted me, she called me as, my favorite.

Susan Sly 33:21
Thank you for, thank you for sharing that, Amy. As you're speaking, I think about all of the women listening and the work you're doing with Proov test. And I know like this, it's one thing and like you said, it's getting out in front of it and so many of my girlfriends so you know, I'm 50 and you know, some of their daughters are now starting to have kids and there are a lot of miscarriages that happened during the pandemic. It was such a lonely times, like I can't, you know, you can't go out with your girlfriends after and have a good cry like, you know, it's this isolation. And I just want to commend you, for all of the women you're helping as a woman who did have a miscarriage and you know, and thank you for bringing it to the forefront and I just want to encourage everyone listening if you know someone who is trying to get pregnant or thinking about getting pregnant, share this, share this episode, share proovtest.com and Amy, I hope you have the best time at Disneyland because it's you know, it is such a fun place to go with your nephew. Are you bringing the other kids too or is everyone going?

Dr. Amy Beckley 34:38
Yeah.

Susan Sly 34:40
Nice. Nice. That's awesome. Well, Amy, thank you so much for being here on the show and thank you for all the work you're doing. And there are some, I also, as a woman in STEM to another woman in STEM, you know we're, Amy and I were laughing we're both handtalkers so I'm just gonna give you a virtual high five through the zoom. Yes. And I'm sure Neville, our video editor is going to catch that. But anyway, thanks Amy, so much for being here. Check out proovtest.com. And with that, God bless. Go rock your day and I will see you in the next episode.

Susan Sly 35:18
Hey, this is Susan and thanks so much for listening to this episode on Raw and Real Entrepreneurship. If this episode or any episode has been helpful to you, you've gotten at least one solid tip from myself or my guests. I would love it if you would leave a five star review where ever you listen to podcast. After you leave your review, go ahead and email reviews@Susansly.com. Let us know where you left the review. And if I read your review on air, you could get a $50 amazon gift card and we would so appreciate it because reviews do help boost the show and get this message all over the world. If you're interested in any of the resources we discussed on the show, go to Susansly.com. That's where all the show notes live. And with that, go out there rock your day. God bless. And I will see you in the next episode.

Susan Sly 36:12
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